orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) (02/21/86)
> >From: tim sevener whuxn!orb > > At the same time, one must recognize > > that Stalin has been dead for 30 years now. The instruments of repression > > in the Soviet Union no longer include the wholesale slaughter of Stalinism. > > Instead they include summary arrest, the use of mental hospitals and > > generalized censorship. They also include restrictions on people's > > rights to distribute literature in public places. > > I think that Tim failed to discuss one of the most serious civil > right violation in the USSR. The USSR severely restricts the > right of its people to emigrate. If you don't like the US, > you can leave the country. There are many oppressive governments > on this planet. Yet, when it comes to emigration, the USSR and > its satellite nations are at the top of the list. Basically, > the USSR can be viewed as a giant prison camp for its people. > -- > Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories > Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho You have a valid point, although I think it is not true that the USSR can be viewed as simply a giant prison camp for its people. I support the right of all Soviets to freely emigrate, if they wish. Perhaps (??) the release of Shcharansky indicates a future opening of Soviet emigration policy. But there has been no evidence of that as yet. But again, let me point out that my point was hardly to *condone* Soviet human rights abuses of all sorts - my point was that if we do not watch out we will wind up with a similar situation in our own country. Distibuting literature at shopping malls has been treated as a "trivial" problem. But I do not think it is when also considered in conjunction with the blatant censorship of the press during Grenada, in conjunction with forced lie detector tests in the highest levels of government, in conjunction with FCC policies which threaten to allow media monopolies throughout the country, in conjunction with attempts to make all government employees take an oath that they would *never* reveal what they had learned in office, even after leaving office. Another very real threat is the enormous increase in research and development spending for the military on classified projects which Star Wars threatens to increase to even larger proportions. As part of this militarization of research more and more restrictions are being placed upon rights to publish and basic academic freedoms. The point is to *avoid* becoming another Soviet Union, not to "defend ourselves" by simply becoming like the Soviet Union ourselves. tim sevener whuxn!orb
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (02/24/86)
> Another very real threat is the enormous increase in research and development > spending for the military on classified projects which Star Wars threatens > to increase to even larger proportions. As part of this militarization > of research more and more restrictions are being placed upon rights to > publish and basic academic freedoms. > The point is to *avoid* becoming another Soviet Union, not to > "defend ourselves" by simply becoming like the Soviet Union ourselves. > tim sevener whuxn!orb I don't disagree with Tim that there those who would like to restrict our freedom in the US. Tim is pointing mostly in the direction of the military establishment, but I feel that if there is a danger, it comes from the religious right. I think it is possible to make intersting analogies between the Soviet communists and the fundamentalist religionist in the US. You just have to substitute "Marxism, Leninism" dogma by "Bible, God" dogma, and you will see what I mean. Reagan and others try to portray the US, that unlike the atheistic USSR, has the Bible and God on our side. In contrast, Gorbachev would justify his actions as Marxist Leninist. The emphasize on the distinction between the US and the USSR should be on freedom and the lack of freedom, rather on dogmatic differences. Back to your point. I think trying to equate the present condition in the US to the USSR is an offense against human intelligence. Naturally, there some who would like to transform this country to a totaliterian system, but excluding a terrible catastrophe, I feel they would have a difficult time achieving their goal. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
foy@aero.ARPA (Richard Foy) (03/07/86)
In article <1007@whuxl.UUCP> orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >> >From: tim sevener whuxn!orb >Soviet emigration policy. But there has been no evidence of that as yet. >But again, let me point out that my point was hardly to *condone* Soviet >human rights abuses of all sorts - my point was that if we do not >watch out we will wind up with a similar situation in our own country. >Distibuting literature at shopping malls has been treated as a "trivial" >problem. But I do not think it is when also considered in conjunction >with the blatant censorship of the press during Grenada, in conjunction >with forced lie detector tests in the highest levels of government, >in conjunction with FCC policies which threaten to allow media monopolies >throughout the country, in conjunction with attempts to make all government >employees take an oath that they would *never* reveal what they had >learned in office, even after leaving office. >Another very real threat is the enormous increase in research and development >spending for the military on classified projects which Star Wars threatens >to increase to even larger proportions. As part of this militarization >of research more and more restrictions are being placed upon rights to >publish and basic academic freedoms. >The point is to *avoid* becoming another Soviet Union, not to >"defend ourselves" by simply becoming like the Soviet Union ourselves. > tim sevener whuxn!orb tim I think that you clear address a very grave danger, in a well thought out logical manner. It is hard for me to see how intelligent people would not agree with you. I agree. Presumably most of the people on this net are intelligent. However I suspect that many will disagree. Do you wonder why? Richard Foy, Redondo Beach, CA The opinions I have expressed are the result of many years in the school of hard knocks. Thus they are my own.