mjk@ttrdc.UUCP (Mike Kelly) (06/01/85)
I will no longer be on a UNIX machine as of today. I'm joining the Illinois staff of the Nuclear Weapons Freeze Campaign. It's bee fun arguing with you. Mike Kelly
simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) (03/04/86)
With this posting I am saying Goodbye to this net.group. But it's not
that I am changing jobs or anything like that. For the last few months
I just get sick and tired of reading the articles written by people who
know next to nothing about what they are writing. I am talking about
people who would be much better off in the Soviet Union then in a
democratic country. People who compare everyday abuses of human rights
in the USSR with police actions protecting property owners from
abusers. Who speak favorably of Communist regimes in the world without
having a slightest idea of what it is. And the less knowledge, the
more noise.
When I began reading this net.group, I couldn't believe that there were
so many people who blame America for every misfortune in the world.
Really, their buddies in the Kremlin couldn't have a better allies! A
few days ago I ran across a Soviet daily "Pravda". What Tim Sevener,
Piotr Berman, Larry Kolodney, et. al. keep saying every day about the
USA, it's mass media, it's government, policy, etc., just repeats the
articles about the USA in this newspaper.
Many years ago Lenin said about people like these: "We need useful
idiots in the West. They will do more damage to capitalist countries
then we can". He was right. Here on this net.group there are more
people like that then in any place else. I have been living in the USA
for four years now and have not met personally anybody with so
pro-Soviet views. But here on net.politics....
BTW, I started reading this net.group a few months before the
Presidential election. I didn't like the most of opinions then, but
everybody is entitled to one. What confused me was, in my view, a
complete misinterpretation of what was going in the country. Then,
just a few days before the election, somebody on the .group took a poll.
Almost 80% of the group said that they would vote for Mondale. A few
days later Regan won a landslide victory. It showed me how "good" a
representation of American public is this net.group. Thank G_d, most
of the Americans do have common sense! I quit then and started again
recently after somebody forwarded me an article about Soviet Jews --
the subject that is close to me. A few months of going through this
again is enough. This time I am quitting for good.
---
Leo Simon
Digital Equipment Corp.
333 South St.
Shrewsbury MA, 01545
(617)841-3521
DTN 237-3521
Mail Stop SHR-4/D26
(UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon
(ARPA) simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to
do with my employer.mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/06/86)
In article <1466@decwrl.DEC.COM>, simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) writes: > With this posting I am saying Goodbye to this net.group. But it's not > that I am changing jobs or anything like that. For the last few months > I just get sick and tired of reading the articles written by people who > know next to nothing about what they are writing. I am talking about > people who would be much better off in the Soviet Union then in a > democratic country. People who compare everyday abuses of human rights > [many lines of blather deleted] > Many years ago Lenin said about people like these: "We need useful > idiots in the West. They will do more damage to capitalist countries > then we can". He was right. Here on this net.group there are more > people like that then in any place else. I have been living in the USA > for four years now and have not met personally anybody with so > pro-Soviet views. But here on net.politics.... > [many lines of blather deleted] > the subject that is close to me. A few months of going through this > again is enough. This time I am quitting for good. It strikes me that this represents no loss to the net.group, or to the net as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how right-wing idiots equate criticism of the United States with Soviet sympathy. I deplore and reject the support that the Reagan administration is lending to the Contra rebels. Therefore, I *MUST* be a supporter of the Sandinista regime, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that *WE* have no business in there at all! The Soviets invade Afghanistan, and I argue that what the Soviets are doing is no worse than what we did in Viet Nam, Grenada, etc. Therefore, I *MUST* be a Soviet sympathizer, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that if this nation reserves the right to invade and interfere with the internal workings of other nations, for reasons of political convenience, then we *AS A NATION* have no right to complain when other nations do the same! In fairness, left-wing idiots make the same errors, when people disagree with them. Amazing, how much the same they are, isn't it? > > --- > Leo Simon > > Digital Equipment Corp. > 333 South St. > Shrewsbury MA, 01545 > > (617)841-3521 > DTN 237-3521 > Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 > > (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon > (ARPA) simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > > You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to > do with my employer. -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim and and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/06/86)
NO!, don't give up. I have read this newsgroup on and off for a while. I never respond to polls, so maybe there are others who aren't 'useful idiots' who would like to occasionally see a rational posting. Keep reading, the balance of the discussion actually seems better than it has been in the past. Guy
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/10/86)
> > [Leo Simon] > > With this posting I am saying Goodbye to this net.group. But it's not > > that I am changing jobs or anything like that. For the last few months > > I just get sick and tired of reading the articles written by people who > > know next to nothing about what they are writing. I am talking about > > people who would be much better off in the Soviet Union then in a > > democratic country. People who compare everyday abuses of human rights > > [many lines deleted] > > Many years ago Lenin said about people like these: "We need useful > > idiots in the West. They will do more damage to capitalist countries > > then we can". He was right. Here on this net.group there are more > > people like that then in any place else. I have been living in the USA > > for four years now and have not met personally anybody with so > > pro-Soviet views. But here on net.politics.... > > [many lines deleted] > > the subject that is close to me. A few months of going through this > > again is enough. This time I am quitting for good. -------------------- > [Tom Keller] > It strikes me that this represents no loss to the net.group, or to > the net as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how right-wing idiots > equate criticism of the United States with Soviet sympathy. > I deplore and reject the support that the Reagan administration is lending > to the Contra rebels. Therefore, I *MUST* be a supporter of the Sandinista > regime, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that *WE* have no business > in there at all! > The Soviets invade Afghanistan, and I argue that what the Soviets are doing > is no worse than what we did in Viet Nam, Grenada, etc. Therefore, I *MUST* > be a Soviet sympathizer, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that if this > nation reserves the right to invade and interfere with the internal workings > of other nations, for reasons of political convenience, then we *AS A NATION* > have no right to complain when other nations do the same! > In fairness, left-wing idiots make the same errors, when people disagree > with them. Amazing, how much the same they are, isn't it? -------------------- Leo Simon's error was to label such views as "pro-Soviet". Tom Keller is correct on that point. If Leo had just stuck to terms such as "idiotic" (to those who compare human rights abuses in the U. S. to those in the Soviet Union), all would have been well. On foreign policy, I have a question for Tom Keller: Do U. S. actions in Viet Nam and Grenada (assuming for the sake of argument that they were wrong) mean that the U. S. as a nation has no right to help the Afghan guerrillas? I mean, if the U. S. cannot even CRITICIZE the Soviet Union for Afghanistan, how can we possibly aid the Afghan guerrillas? Translation: If the U. S. does anything wrong, we must therefore shut up when the Soviets do the same or much worse. One does not have to be "pro-Soviet" to be an idiot. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/11/86)
>In article <1466@decwrl.DEC.COM>, simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) writes: >> With this posting I am saying Goodbye to this net.group. But it's not >> that I am changing jobs or anything like that. For the last few months >> I just get sick and tired of reading the articles written by people who >> know next to nothing about what they are writing. I am talking about >> people who would be much better off in the Soviet Union then in a >> democratic country. People who compare everyday abuses of human rights >> [many lines of blather deleted] >> Many years ago Lenin said about people like these: "We need useful >> idiots in the West. They will do more damage to capitalist countries >> then we can". He was right. Here on this net.group there are more >> people like that then in any place else. I have been living in the USA >> for four years now and have not met personally anybody with so >> pro-Soviet views. But here on net.politics.... >> [many lines of blather deleted] >> the subject that is close to me. A few months of going through this >> again is enough. This time I am quitting for good. > It strikes me that this represents no loss to the net.group, or to >the net as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how right-wing idiots >equate criticism of the United States with Soviet sympathy. How charming! After being told that a person who has a great deal to contribute to the discussion is withdrawing due to the high stupidity level, the response is more insults. > I deplore and reject the support that the Reagan administration is lending >to the Contra rebels. Therefore, I *MUST* be a supporter of the Sandinista >regime, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that *WE* have no business >in there at all! Who is a supporter of the Sandinistas? Is it a convinced Marxist-Leninist? Or what? Frankly, WHO CARES? The actions you propose (inaction) are highly favorable to the Sandinistas. Therefore, you are "supporting" them, no matter what your personal politcal views. If you believe that we have no 'business in there', great. I assume you feel that the USSR has no business there either. Unfortunately, both the US and the USSR are involved. I'm sorry that we don't live in a world that accords with your moral principles. Given that, what is your solution? Do nothing? Ever? > The Soviets invade Afghanistan, and I argue that what the Soviets are doing >is no worse than what we did in Viet Nam, Grenada, etc. Therefore, I *MUST* >be a Soviet sympathizer, right? ***WRONG*** I simply believe that if this >nation reserves the right to invade and interfere with the internal workings >of other nations, for reasons of political convenience, then we *AS A NATION* >have no right to complain when other nations do the same! Stretching it a little bit including Grenada aren't you? I mean, the people of Grenada seem to really _like_ Ronald Reagan. My personal 'take' on the Vietnam-Afghanistan issue is that the crimes the US was accused of in Vietnam (often falsely), the USSR commits in Afghanistan. You aren't going to compare tear gas to nerve gas, are you? MAJOR POINT: The world wide level of protest against the USSR war in Afghanistan is about 1/10 the level of the protest against the Vietnam war. > In fairness, left-wing idiots make the same errors, when people disagree >with them. Amazing, how much the same they are, isn't it? To be really fair, you should condemn both the US and Germany. After all, Germany invaded France in 1940. The US invaded France in 1944. Aren't these equivalent? Does that make sense? Evil is helped when a false neutrality fails to even _say_ that evil is evil. Too much attention paid to the external forms (soldiers enter France) ignores the reality of what is happening (enslavement versus liberation). >> >> --- >> Leo Simon >> >> Digital Equipment Corp. >> 333 South St. >> Shrewsbury MA, 01545 >> >> (617)841-3521 >> DTN 237-3521 >> Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 >> >> (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon >> (ARPA) simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA >> >> You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to >> do with my employer. >-- >==================================== >Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim and and all responsibility for disclaimers. >tom keller >{ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 >(* we may not be big, but we're small! *) Guy dis' claimer: I'm not claiming anything. The _other_ claimer says he's got a gold strike. (pun)
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (03/11/86)
-- > NO!, don't give up. I have read this newsgroup on and off for a while. > I never respond to polls, so maybe there are others who aren't 'useful > idiots' who would like to occasionally see a rational posting. > > Keep reading, the balance of the discussion actually seems better than > it has been in the past. > > Guy YES! Do give up. I've had it with immigrants to the US from USSR who think that support for civil liberties (ours, yours, or a genric Nicaraguan's) is tantamount to being a dupe of the Communists. Yes, you had it bad in the USSR--worse than I can probably imagine--but while you're basking in how good it is here (and it sure as hell is), think about how little it takes for civilized people to become savages, and when they do who they will most certainly come for. Again. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Mar 86 [20 Ventose An CXCIV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/12/86)
In article <1694@ihlpg.UUCP>, tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > Leo Simon's error was to label such views as "pro-Soviet". Tom Keller is > correct on that point. If Leo had just stuck to terms such as "idiotic" > (to those who compare human rights abuses in the U. S. to those in the > Soviet Union), all would have been well. > On foreign policy, I have a question for Tom Keller: > Do U. S. actions in Viet Nam and Grenada (assuming for the sake of argument > that they were wrong) mean that the U. S. as a nation > has no right to help the Afghan guerrillas? I mean, if the U. S. cannot > even CRITICIZE the Soviet Union for Afghanistan, how can we possibly aid > the Afghan guerrillas? > Translation: If the U. S. does anything wrong, we must therefore > shut up when the Soviets do the same or much worse. > One does not have to be "pro-Soviet" to be an idiot. Touche`, Bill. I was not clear enough in making my point. What I *OUGHT* to have said, was: *IF* we are going to criticise the Soviets for actions such as Afghanistan, then we must, as a society and a nation, begin to truly accept responsibility for what we have done and are doing, geo-politically. We *ARE* directly supporting terrorism in many places around the globe. It makes no difference what govenrment is currently in power in these places, to support groups like th Contras or Savimbe's guerillas is to support terrorism. I do not necessarily support the Sandinista regime, nor the current government of Angola. I also do not support the campaign of terrorism against them that is currently being waged **BY THE UNITED STATES**. I will also not tolerate being labelled a "pro-Soviet" or a "commie-sympathizer". No, Bill, one need not be pro-Soviet in order to be an idiot. I don't *THINK* I am an idiot either (though there *ARE* times...). -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/13/86)
Freedom of speech is very important, of course, some people's freedom of speech is more important than others. Does this mean I think ken perlow is 'restricting' freedom of speech? No. Is he being 'close minded', or rude. Welllllllll..... -- >> NO!, don't give up. I have read this newsgroup on and off for a while. >> I never respond to polls, so maybe there are others who aren't 'useful >> idiots' who would like to occasionally see a rational posting. >> >> Keep reading, the balance of the discussion actually seems better than >> it has been in the past. >> >> Guy >YES! Do give up. I've had it with immigrants to the US from USSR who >think that support for civil liberties (ours, yours, or a genric >Nicaraguan's) is tantamount to being a dupe of the Communists. Yes, >you had it bad in the USSR--worse than I can probably imagine--but >while you're basking in how good it is here (and it sure as hell is), >think about how little it takes for civilized people to become savages, >and when they do who they will most certainly come for. Again. >-- > *** *** >JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** > ****** ****** 10 Mar 86 [20 Ventose An CXCIV] >ken perlow ***** ***** >(312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** >..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** *** Gee, ken, I've had it with people, wherever they are from, who don't want to listen to the facts about the lovely Soviets. Of course, we should all be willing to listen to people with personal experience, right? If someone came back from El Salvador and criticised that government, I refuse to believe you'd be as rude to them as you have been here. I often am skeptical and ironic. There is a difference between that and rudeness. Like you care. Guy
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/15/86)
> [Tom Keller] > We *ARE* directly supporting terrorism in many places around the globe. It > makes no difference what govenrment is currently in power in these places, to > support groups like th Contras or Savimbe's guerillas is to support terrorism. > I do not necessarily support the Sandinista regime, nor the current government > of Angola. I also do not support the campaign of terrorism against them that > is currently being waged **BY THE UNITED STATES**. ----------------------- A question for Tom Keller, Tim Sevener, et. al.: Do you feel that to support the Afghan Guerillas is to support terrorism? If not, why not? Why are the Contras and Savimbi terrorists and the Afghans not terrorists? Remember, terrorism is a TACTIC, and has nothing to do with the justification of the underlying cause. How do the ACTIONS of Savimbi differ from those of the Afghan Guerillas. The relative legitimacy of the Angolan and Afghan Governments has a great bearing on whether we should support the respective guerillas, but no bearing on whether or not the guerilla actions are terrorism. Terrorism ala Keller/Sevener: Any action which results in the deaths of innocent people taken on behalf of a cause with which Keller/Sevener is out of sympathy. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan