rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (02/25/86)
A while ago, Oded Feingold said that the Soviet segment of the trans-Siberian petroleum pipeline was built in the early 1980s with slave labor from the concentration camps of the Gulag. I've found sources for this claim. In "How Democracies Fail" (Doubleday, 1983), Jean-Francois Revel says: ....it occurred to the Sakharov Committee, the Frankfurt Association for the Defense of Human Rights, a few labor leaders and a handful of journalists to point out that much of the labor used in building the pipeline was probably slave labor from the gulags, in keeping with a long-standing Communist tradition in big works projects. [ page 140 ] The French Government sent its ambassador in Moscow to go to Siberia to "investigate" the matter. But When we remember that diplomats assigned to Moscow can travel only to strictly defined areas, we can guess how much leeway the French ambassador was given to conduct his "investigation," which, needless to say, died at birth. [ 140 ] "L'Humanite," the newspaper of the French Communist Party, dispatched "one of its own notoriously independent and impartial reporters to Siberia," whose published report claimed not only that the pipeline workers were there voluntarily, but displayed great enthusiasm, and received high wages. Finally, In "The First Guidebook to U.S.S.R. Prisons and Concentration Camps," Avraham Shifrin superimposed the pipeline route with wonderful precision on a map of the camps. [ 141 ] Regards, Ron Rizzo
desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) (02/27/86)
In article <1720@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >A while ago, Oded Feingold said that the Soviet segment of the >trans-Siberian petroleum pipeline was built in the early 1980s >with slave labor from the concentration camps of the Gulag. > >I've found sources for this claim. I have this nasty feeling as I read this that you must be joking, and I have missed all of the :-). If this was a joke and I missed the point feel free to flame at me for my stupidity... >In "How Democracies Fail" (Doubleday, 1983), Jean-Francois Revel says: > > ....it occurred to the Sakharov Committee, the Frankfurt > Association for the Defense of Human Rights, a few labor > leaders and a handful of journalists to point out that > much of the labor used in building the pipeline was > probably slave labor from the gulags, in keeping with a > long-standing Communist tradition in big works projects. > > [ page 140 ] No evidence here, just unsupported speculation by ardent anti-Soviets. >The French Government sent its ambassador in Moscow to go to >Siberia to "investigate" the matter. But > > When we remember that diplomats assigned to Moscow can > travel only to strictly defined areas, we can guess how > much leeway the French ambassador was given to conduct > his "investigation," which, needless to say, died at > birth. [ 140 ] In other words, no evidence here either. >"L'Humanite," the newspaper of the French Communist Party, dispatched >"one of its own notoriously independent and impartial reporters to >Siberia," whose published report claimed not only that the pipeline >workers were there voluntarily, but displayed great enthusiasm, and >received high wages. And we all know that if those nasty Communists say one thing the opposite must be true... >Finally, > > In "The First Guidebook to U.S.S.R. Prisons and Concentration > Camps," Avraham Shifrin superimposed the pipeline route with > wonderful precision on a map of the camps. [ 141 ] So at last we have the evidence. Did he happen by any chance to superimpose either of these with railroad maps? I'll bet they match with "wonderful precision." Or does the fact that the camps are near the rail lines mean that the prisoners were forced to build those too? :-) -- David desJardins
lkk@mit-eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) (03/01/86)
In article <1720@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: > > ....it occurred to the Sakharov Committee, the Frankfurt > Association for the Defense of Human Rights, a few labor > leaders and a handful of journalists to point out that > much of the labor used in building the pipeline was > probably slave labor from the gulags, in keeping with a > long-standing Communist tradition in big works projects. Please don't forget the long-standing tradition in the American South of using forced prison labor on road-building projects, as well as on private property, where the owner leases these workers from the state. Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? -- larry kolodney (The Devil's Advocate) UUCP: ...{ihnp4, decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!lkk ARPA: lkk@mit-mc
sykora@csd2.UUCP (Michael Sykora) (03/02/86)
>/* lkk@mit-eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) / 7:52 pm Feb 28, 1986 */ >Please don't forget the long-standing tradition in the American South >of using forced prison labor on road-building projects, as well as on >private property, where the owner leases these workers from the state. Provided it is not accompanied by cruel treatment of prisoners, this is an excellent way of getting prisoners to compensate their victims. After they had worked a sufficient amount of time, they should be released. >Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? Hardly. In the Soviet Union being a slave to the state is a birthrite, here, at least in theory, one must earn it. >larry kolodney (The Devil's Advocate) Mike Sykora
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (03/05/86)
Where's the evidence? cries David Desjardins. Nit: According to Webster's (WNCD9), evidence: "an outward sign" or "indication," "something that furnishes proof," "something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of the matter." I offered only "sources" for a "claim," ie, the identification of those who made the claim (granted, the word "sources" is ambiguous). However, the fact the sources pointed to, ie, Communist use of slave labor in big works projects (from the construction of Moscow high-rises, some of which stand on the sites of former camps whose inmates built them, to the digging of the infamous White Sea canal), is an outward sign, or indication, of the possible truth of the claim that zeks built the pipeline, something that can be taken in at least partial evidence of the claim. Substance: From the intensity & length of David's message, I'd say he has a strong desire to examine any evidence. Well, there's a place to look (& it's a fairly obvious one): the NYTimes Index during the 1980s (when the pipe- line was built), since the Times dispatched reporters to investigate and they published articles. I'd do it myself & post the results if I had the time. But at least Oded Feingold & I raised the issue, and interested parties can pursue the matter further, that is, if they're really interested at all. Regards, Ron Rizzo
simon@simon_pc.UUCP (Simon Shapiro) (03/05/86)
It is amusing to me the naive newcomer to this network how easily american citizens will condemn their government, while forgiving/forgetting/ignoring everything a superpower bent on destroying them and the vry principles they operate on is doing. Simon.
rastaman@ihdev.UUCP (Floyd Hydrozoan) (03/10/86)
In article <1122@mit-eddie.UUCP> lkk@eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) writes: >In article <1720@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >> >> much of the labor used in building the pipeline was >> probably slave labor from the gulags, in keeping with a >> long-standing Communist tradition in big works projects. > >Please don't forget the long-standing tradition in the American South >of using forced prison labor on road-building projects, as well as on >... >Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? Sure! It will be just as soon as we make it illegal to be a Jew, or a dissident (You don't like the administration's policy on Nicaragua? Off to the road crew, scum!), or make it illegal to fall out of favor with the party.
gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/10/86)
>It is amusing to me the naive newcomer to this network how easily american >citizens will condemn their government, while forgiving/forgetting/ignoring >everything a superpower bent on destroying them and the vry principles >they operate on is doing. > >Simon. Keep reading, Simon. This is the funniest newsgroup going. Forget net.jokes, this is the place! Guy
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/12/86)
In article <542@ihdev.UUCP>, rastaman@ihdev.UUCP (Floyd Hydrozoan) writes: > In article <1122@mit-eddie.UUCP> lkk@eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) writes: > >... > >Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? > > Sure! It will be just as soon as we make it illegal to be a Jew, or > a dissident (You don't like the administration's policy on Nicaragua? > Off to the road crew, scum!), or make it illegal to fall out of favor > with the party. Or *FUNCTIONALLY* illegal to be non-white! Come now, Floyd, do you honestly expect us to believe that the inordinately high percentage of Black inmates in southern (or northern, for that matter) jails is simply because blacks are more likely to commit crimes? Granted, the Soviets carry their situation to greater extremes, but the principals are the same! While visiting in North Carolina several years ago, I became involved in a discussion of the racism issue. A young black woman pointed out to me that she would rather live in the south. She argued that while the "north" pays much lip service to equality, the fact is that racism is just as prevalent, we just lie about it, and keep it covered up. IN the south, she said, at least she KNEW where people were coming from. If you were going to be hassled for being non-white, it would be done openly and honestly. I don't know if I agree with her completely, but being white, I don't find my reluctance particularly amazing, especially as I am from northern California, home of California Liberalism. I have this nagging suspicion, however, that she is correct. IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not do, to some extent or another. -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu (Tom Tedrick) (03/14/86)
> IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not >do, to some extent or another. Uh, how about leaving the country. As far as I know I can walk across the border without any interference. (The people on the other side might not let me in though :-)
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (03/14/86)
> In article <542@ihdev.UUCP>, rastaman@ihdev.UUCP (Floyd Hydrozoan) writes: > > In article <1122@mit-eddie.UUCP> lkk@eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) writes: > > >... > > >Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? > > > > Sure! It will be just as soon as we make it illegal to be a Jew, or > > a dissident (You don't like the administration's policy on Nicaragua? > > Off to the road crew, scum!), or make it illegal to fall out of favor > > with the party. > > Or *FUNCTIONALLY* illegal to be non-white! Come now, Floyd, do you honestly > expect us to believe that the inordinately high percentage of Black inmates > in southern (or northern, for that matter) jails is simply because blacks are > more likely to commit crimes? Granted, the Soviets carry their situation > to greater extremes, but the principals are the same! > I don't find it surprising that blacks have historically received rougher sentences in this country because of racism. I don't doubt that it still happens, although to a lesser extent. However, the one thing which is indisputably clear is that blacks commit a disproportionate number of the crimes in this country (mostly against other blacks). We can argue about the reasons for this all day long -- but suggesting that the high percentage of blacks in jails and prisons is racism, not a reflection of crime incidence is just plain absurd. > While visiting in North Carolina several years ago, I became involved in a > discussion of the racism issue. A young black woman pointed out to me that > she would rather live in the south. She argued that while the "north" pays > much lip service to equality, the fact is that racism is just as prevalent, > we just lie about it, and keep it covered up. IN the south, she said, at > least she KNEW where people were coming from. If you were going to be hassled > for being non-white, it would be done openly and honestly. > > I don't know if I agree with her completely, but being white, I don't find > my reluctance particularly amazing, especially as I am from northern California, > home of California Liberalism. I have this nagging suspicion, however, that > she is correct. > > IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things > to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their > own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not > do, to some extent or another. > > -- > > ==================================== > > Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. > > tom keller > {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 > > (* we may not be big, but we're small! *) How many American prisoners of war were sent to prison camps after World War II out of fear that they might have been exposed to Western ideas? How many American prisoners of war had to be returned by force to America? Before you try to claim that these sort of things didn't happen to Soviet soldiers, I have a friend who remembers seeing it happen at the end of war -- Soviet POWs begging the Germans to hide them from their countrymen. America isn't perfect, and especially in the past, the government and the society's treatment of minorities has been really abysmal, but claims like the one in your last paragraph are utterly WRONG. Tom, you are shockingly ignorant of history.
mahoney@bartok.DEC (03/15/86)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 12-MAR-1986 18:53--------------------- > IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not >do, to some extent or another. > Mr Keller I take great execption to this. Tell me the last person who was internally exiled in the US without a trial. Tell me the last person who disappeared without a trace in the US because of a government order to make them disappear. How many people are placed in Mental wards because they disagree with the state. Tell me what happens to people who decide to emigrate from the US? There is a major difference besides extremes between the US and Soviet Union. The US constitution guarentees basic human rights. There are bounds on what the US government can and can not do. These bounds do not exist in the Soviet Union and never have. There is freedom in the US there is no freedom in the Soviet Union it is as simple as that. (on dealing with other nations I tend to agree. but I have yet to see what happened in the Phillipeans happen in a client state of the Soviet Union) Brian Mahoney
matthews@harvard.UUCP (Jim Matthews) (03/16/86)
In article <71@gilbbs.UUCP> mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) writes: > > IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not >do, to some extent or another. > Yup, Tom, the Ministry of Truth was right: Freedom is Slavery. Jim Matthews matthews@harvard
vanzandt@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (03/16/86)
In response to that clap about "we do what the Soviets do - to a lesser degree": Oh come on! Dont be ridiculous. Keep such looney tune statements in the Pravda. Trying to draw an analogy between habitual criminals who happen to be black and Soviet Gulag prisoners is fantastic. If there are more blacks in prisons these days, at least try to place the blame on a reasonable hypothesis (like More Blacks live in Poverty, Poverty breeds crime, Criminals end up in jail, QED more blacks are in jail) not that the US has a determined policy of Black civil repression. Note: My conclusion does not rest solely upon its premises, I realize this. It could be that an equal number of white and black suspects appear before the courts and the juries are selectively forcing the black cases to be convictions. If this were so, it calls for an examination of the people, the citizenry of our society - not our Administration or legislation. It is a jury of peers that condems these people - not a government institution. I would venture also, that the juries sending away the suspects are, on the average, racially balanced.
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/16/86)
In article <1685@decwrl.DEC.COM>, mahoney@bartok.DEC writes: > > IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things > >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their > >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not > >do, to some extent or another. > Mr Keller I take great execption to this. Tell me the last person who > was internally exiled in the US without a trial. Tell me the last person > who disappeared without a trace in the US because of a government order to > make them disappear. How many people are placed in Mental wards because > they disagree with the state. Tell me what happens to people who decide to > emigrate from the US? > I wish I had the references here, but I don't, so I am going to approach this in a dangerous fashion: 1) no internal exile or disappearances that I know of have occurred. People may choose to emigrate from this nation at will (with certain minor exceptions, in terms of destination). HOWEVER: it is quite well documented that many people wind up in mental institutions because they "disagree with the state". NO, not as many as in Russia. No, they are most likely not treated as badly (then again, I **KNOW** certain things about the way some mental institutions are run...EC "therapy" used as a threat, to insure specified behavious patterns, etc.). > There is a major difference besides extremes between the US and Soviet > Union. The US constitution guarentees basic human rights. There are bounds > on what the US government can and can not do. These bounds do not exist in > the Soviet Union and never have. There is freedom in the US there is no > freedom in the Soviet Union it is as simple as that. > Yes, there are bounds to what the US govenrment can do. Check out the recent activities of the Reagan adminsitration, openly aimed at reducing those bounds. > (on dealing with other nations I tend to agree. but I have yet to > see what happened in the Phillipeans happen in a client state of > the Soviet Union) > o Good point. I should have mode my statement more clear, I *DID* mean to refer to foriegn affairs actions, I simply failed to clarfiy my intent. Another good score on the Phillipines issue. True enough, no Soviet client state that I am aware of has similarly achieved "liberation". > > Brian Mahoney However, I have said this som many times before, and I will continue to say it: I don't **CARE** what the Soviets, or the Chinese Communists, or anyone else on this planet does. *I* am only responsible for what *MY* country does, as I only have the power to affect my countrys policies (through my vote, and through my freedom and responsibility to lobby). As I have stated before: I believe that no other nation on the face of the earth has a better system of governance that the U.S. does. In general, I am proud to be an American. At times, I am deeply shamed to be an American. I insist that as an American, it is my duty to dissent, when I see my nation involved in questionable or dangerous activities or policies. Lastly, I dislike seeing arguments tot he effect that I have failed to critisize the "bad guys". What good would it do me? Moreover, somehow, such arguments sound amazingly like the young child who cries "But Molly did it too!" when caught and punished. (yes, I **KNOW** I made this same statement in an article posted last night...maybe it bears repeating) -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/17/86)
> > [Tom Keller] > > IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things > > to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their > > own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not > > do, to some extent or another. ------------------ > [Clayton Cramer] > How many American prisoners of war were sent to prison camps after World War > II out of fear that they might have been exposed to Western ideas? How many > American prisoners of war had to be returned by force to America? Before > you try to claim that these sort of things didn't happen to Soviet soldiers, > I have a friend who remembers seeing it happen at the end of war -- Soviet > POWs begging the Germans to hide them from their countrymen. > > America isn't perfect, and especially in the past, the government and the > society's treatment of minorities has been really abysmal, but claims like > the one in your last paragraph are utterly WRONG. > > Tom, you are shockingly ignorant of history. ----------------- Clayton actually understates the situation. Many returning Russian POWs were killed by Stalin's orders. He was paranoid about the presence of German collaborators and/or Western agents in the returning POWs. Actually, there WERE a reasonable number of collaborators among the POWs. To make sure he got them, Stalin killed or imprisoned most (perhaps nearly all) returning POWs. Tom, you are shockingly ignorant of history. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
lkk@mit-eddie.UUCP (03/18/86)
In article <609@kontron.UUCP> cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes: >I don't find it surprising that blacks have historically received rougher >sentences in this country because of racism. I don't doubt that it still >happens, although to a lesser extent. However, the one thing which is >indisputably clear is that blacks commit a disproportionate number of the >crimes in this country (mostly against other blacks). We can argue about >the reasons for this all day long -- but suggesting that the high percentage >of blacks in jails and prisons is racism, not a reflection of crime incidence >is just plain absurd. The real prison problem in this country is that most Blacks are born into prison. A prison called the Ghetto. -- larry kolodney (The Devil's Advocate) UUCP: ...{ihnp4, decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!lkk ARPA: lkk@mit-mc
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (03/19/86)
> >IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things > >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their > >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not > >do, to some extent or another. > > > Mr Keller I take great execption to this. Tell me the last person who > was internally exiled in the US without a trial. Tell me the last person > who disappeared without a trace in the US because of a government order to > make them disappear. How many people are placed in Mental wards because > they disagree with the state. Tell me what happens to people who decide to > emigrate from the US? > > There is a major difference besides extremes between the US and Soviet > Union. The US constitution guarentees basic human rights. There are bounds > on what the US government can and can not do. These bounds do not exist in > the Soviet Union and never have. There is freedom in the US there is no > freedom in the Soviet Union it is as simple as that. > > (on dealing with other nations I tend to agree. but I have yet to > see what happened in the Phillipeans happen in a client state of > the Soviet Union) > > Brian Mahoney I think that the issue with slave labor in USSR was mixed up with the labor of prisoners. It is true that in any reasonable penal system the prisoners have the possibility to work, and that in many democratic countries hard labor was an acceptable form of punishment. One needs to ask a question 'Are there state slaves in USSR?'. According to published documentation of human right groups, the answer is affirmative. There is a group of political prisoners whith very long sentences and which are propmtly encarcerated after each release. Most often they are Ukrainian nationalist. Basically, they are slaves till the end of their lives. However, to my recollection, the camps which 'specialize' nowadays in this kind of prisoners were far from the pipeline (in Mordovia and in Perm district). Second point to consider is harsh sentencing of petty criminals to create more than million strong army of free laborers. Very often they are victims of massive 'campains' (like the recent campain agains alcoholism), and, having legal system rather unfair, their 'crimes' are not proven up to our standarts. If those people would be considered 'slaves', then there is a very good bet that some of them work for the pipeline. On the other hand, in US one could find similar abuses, although on many times smaller scale. Third point to consider is the way the prisoners are forced to work. In general, the nutrition in Soviet prison is poor (I think it would qualify for a 'cruel punishment' in US). If you do not work, you get a ration substancially smaller. Thus the prisoners work is enforced by hunger, and as such it could qualify as 'slave work'. Fourth point to consider is involuntary work. In USSR you may be assigned to live in a city chosen by the government, or to work for several years in an assigned enterprise. No crime is needed to get such a treatment. Many remember perhaps that during Olimpics hundreds (or tens?) of thousands of 'undesirables' were removed from Moscow. Whenever you live, you must work for a state enterprise. This kind of labor has 'slave' elements, and is widely used. Recapitulating, USSR has very few slaves resembling American slaves in pre-1865 South, but it has some. Additionally, it uses forced labor on the scale unknown in the Western counties. As 'advocate of the devil' I will point the following example. Recently 'our friendly' Egypt experience a revolt of conscript policemen. The description of their conditions resembled very much temporary slavery... Piotr Berman
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/19/86)
I am *NOT* shockingly unaware of history.
What I am is shockingly careless in expressing myself. I incorrectly
assumed that the general topic of "foreign affairs" qualified my statement
as being related to that topic. I made a serious error in my argument,
one which in fact I would have pointed out to an opponent.
What I had intended to say was that I see little difference, except in
degree, between the foreign policies of the Soviets and the foreign policies
of the United States.
Besides, we were speaking of contemporary events, not semi-ancient history.
Never the less, the error was mine, I accept full responsibility for it, and
apologize to any who might have been upset or inconvenienced by it.
--
====================================
Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers.
tom keller
{ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020
(* we may not be big, but we're small! *)rb@ccivax.UUCP (03/19/86)
In article <542@ihdev.UUCP> rastaman@ihdev.UUCP (Floyd Hydrozoan) writes: >In article <1122@mit-eddie.UUCP> lkk@eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) writes: >>In article <1720@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >>> >>> much of the labor used in building the pipeline was >>> probably slave labor from the gulags, in keeping with a >>> long-standing Communist tradition in big works projects. >> >>Please don't forget the long-standing tradition in the American South >>of using forced prison labor on road-building projects, as well as on >>... >>Isn't this the same sort of slavery we criticize the Soviets for? > >Sure! It will be just as soon as we make it illegal to be a Jew, or >a dissident (You don't like the administration's policy on Nicaragua? >Off to the road crew, scum!), or make it illegal to fall out of favor >with the party. Oh, we're much more sophisticated than that. We simply use "blacklists", and various racist, political,economic,... techniques to make crimes more "justifiable" to the oppressed groups. Then we make laws that almost anyone can violate. THEN we can put those undesirables into prison labor camps. If you are carrying a wrench in Texas, you can go to jail (See "Trenton Pickle Ordinance"), but don't worry, that's only enforced for wetbacks. Oh, by the way, your "public defender" has a hangover so you'll have to defend yourself. This doesn't mean the U.S.S.R. is right, just that we're not perfect. The favorite "human rights" issue of the U.S.S.R. is what we do to "Indians" (native americans on reservations). None of their allogations has been investigated (they are "local" problems).
mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (MKR) (03/19/86)
In article <12366@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Tom Tedrick) writes: >> IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things >>to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their >>own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not >>do, to some extent or another. > >Uh, how about leaving the country. As far as I know I can walk >across the border without any interference. > >(The people on the other side might not let me in though :-) It has indeed happened that the US Government has revoked a citizen's passport because they wanted to prevent that citizen from carrying out his planned activities outside the country. -- --MKR "The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of consistency." - Albert Einstein
desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) (03/23/86)
In article <642@mmm.UUCP> mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (MKR) writes: >In article <12366@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP >(Tom Tedrick) writes: >> >>Uh, how about leaving the country. As far as I know I can walk >>across the border without any interference. >> >>(The people on the other side might not let me in though :-) > > It has indeed happened that the US Government has revoked a >citizen's passport because they wanted to prevent that citizen from >carrying out his planned activities outside the country. One does not need a passport to leave the country. Other countries may require that you have a passport to enter them. Note that this is exactly what Tom says above. -- David desJardins
tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu (Tom Tedrick) (03/23/86)
In article <642@mmm.UUCP> mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (MKR) writes: >In article <12366@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Tom Tedrick) writes: >>> IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things >>>to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their >>>own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not >>>do, to some extent or another. >> >>Uh, how about leaving the country. As far as I know I can walk >>across the border without any interference. >> >>(The people on the other side might not let me in though :-) > > It has indeed happened that the US Government has revoked a >citizen's passport because they wanted to prevent that citizen from >carrying out his planned activities outside the country. Sorry to quibble about a small point, but the last few times I have left the country, no US government officials have checked my passport (maybe the airlines do, but that is because they want to make sure they don't have to give you a free return flight if the place you are going won't let you in). It is only when I came back that it was checked. My point wasn't about passports, it was about walking across the border, which I have personally done a number of times. I suppose you could find examples where they stopped people from doing that though.
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (03/24/86)
> In article <12366@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Tom Tedrick) writes: > >> IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things > >>to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their > >>own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not > >>do, to some extent or another. > > > >Uh, how about leaving the country. As far as I know I can walk > >across the border without any interference. > > > >(The people on the other side might not let me in though :-) > > It has indeed happened that the US Government has revoked a > citizen's passport because they wanted to prevent that citizen from > carrying out his planned activities outside the country. > That sort of abuse has been stopped (I hope). But the whole population isn't prevented from leaving.