tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/20/86)
> > [Me] > > Unfortunately, if the (relatively) bad guys interfere in the internal > > affairs of other countries, and the (relatively) good guys do not, the > > (relatively) bad guys will end up calling the shots. This is the unfortunate > > reality of the world we live in. The problem is always one of choosing > > the lesser evil. Complete non-interventionism is the road to disaster. > > The world would be a far better place if the Western Powers had intervened > > in Germany in 1933 or 1936, or even 1938. The problem is to pick the > > right interventions and avoid the wrong ones. It's a very difficult > > problem indeed. We can do without your simplicities, just as we can > > do without the simplicities of the Right. ---------- > [Sevener referring to above] > Some lame excuses from Bill Tanenbaum for our government's past history > of supporting dictatorships, invasions and overthrows of democratic > governments: ---------- No Tim, I have never been in favor of overthrowing a democratic government. That includes Allende. I don't know how you can interpret my statement as support for ALL past U. S. interventions. I guess if I'm not with you 100% I must be against you 100%. Supporting a dictatorship is another matter. That depends on a lot of factors. ---------- > I'm afraid the history of interventions by the US government hardly > supports your statement, Bill. The US helped install Anastasio Somoza > in power years ago. What was the result? Decades of murders, tortures, > censorship and the takeover of Nicaraguan lands to the point the > Somoza family owned 30% of all the land in Nicaragua. Was helping > this "bad guy" good? Please explain to me how. ---------- No, helping Somoza was never good. Who said it was? Not me. ---------- > Or take the CIA and International Monetary Fund's assistance in > overthrowing and assassinating Salvador Allende, the *democratically* > elected President of Chile. In the first place, I would like to > know how overthrowing a democratically elected government is > "helping the good guys"? Chile was the only country in South America > to have an uninterrupted tradition of democracy for decades. > Since the US government helped install Augusto Pinochet as military > dictator, democracy there has been eliminated. Thousands of Chilean > citizens have turned up "missing" under Pinochet's regime while > Human Rights organizations also point to repeated instances of > torture and imprisonment for political dissidents. This is > an "improvement" over an unbroken tradition of democracy spanning > decades? Please explain to me how. -------- No, it's not. Who said it was? -------- > This is not to say that *all* US intervention has been bad. --------- Funny, that's just what I said. --------- > The US helped foster a democratic tradition in the Philipines > which came to fruition despite Reagan's support for Marcos in > the victory of Cory Aquino. The US also helped foster democracy > in Japan and helped pick Europe off its feet with the Marshall Plan. > > But unfortunately when the US has supported dictatorships > or overthrown democracies dictatorships and oppression has > been precisely the result of those policies. --------- What about the support of the South Korean dictatorship when the North Koreans invaded? There is certainly opression in South Korea today. But nothing like in North Korea. Democracy may yet come to South Korea. Fat chance in the North. --------- > The US mistakenly > supported the French in trying to regain Indochina as a French > colony- the results? Decades of war and a Communist dictatorship. --------- Supporting French colonialism was a mistake. However, it is highly probable that the Communist dictatorship would have resulted anyway. --------- > If Reagan truly supports *democracy* in Nicaragua then he should > have put pressure on Arturo Cruz to *RUN* in the 1984 elections > in Nicaragua instead of snubbing his nose at the democratic > process. ---------- I'll pass on this one. ---------- > There *IS* another choice besides left or rightwing dictatorships > and terrorism- namely democracy. THAT should be our public policy. ---------- I agree. However, when democracy is not a reasonable possibility, we have to work with what we have. Would you be morally opposed to helping (for example) Pakistan against a Soviet invasion or Soviet supported insurgents. After, all, Tim, Pakistan is a dictatorship. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/25/86)
In article <1720@ihlpg.UUCP>, tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > > The US mistakenly > > supported the French in trying to regain Indochina as a French > > colony- the results? Decades of war and a Communist dictatorship. > --------- > Supporting French colonialism was a mistake. However, it is highly > probable that the Communist dictatorship would have > resulted anyway. Oh really? On what information do you base this higly amusing conclusion, Bill? The fact is that Ho Chi Mihn and his followers tried for years to avoid associated with the communists, in their fight for *FREEDOM* AND *INDEPENDENCE* from France. They were finally forced (as were the Sandinistas) to turn to Moscow to avoid being obliterated. The fact is that had the US and the UN not supported France in their murderous attempt to maintain their colonial power in VietNam, there would now be a reasonably stable democracy. > I agree. However, when democracy is not a reasonable possibility, > we have to work with what we have. Would you be morally opposed to > helping (for example) Pakistan against a Soviet invasion or Soviet > supported insurgents. After, all, Tim, Pakistan is a dictatorship. Hold it a minute. Bill, this is a bullshit arguement. In Nicaraugua, we are dealing with a purely civil war, between two factions of the same nation. The duly elected Sandinista government (which is most decidedly *NOT* wholly communist), and the Contras (who mostly, at the leadership level, represent Samoza's former muscle squads, and who have no interest in establishing a democracy of any sort in Nicaraugua). IN Pakistan, we are dealing with a FOREIGN invasion. However, in the case of Pakistan, I would say that support there would be questionable as well. I do not accept the standard procedure of this nation that if a government *SAYS* it is anti-communist, we will support it, regardless of how bad it is, how corrupt, how vicious and cruel. No sir. -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)