mahoney@bartok.DEC (03/12/86)
I have been reading about how awful those Soviets are. They are bully's ready to take over the world. Personally I do believe that the Soviets must be watched that they are trying to build an Empire. That I have no doubt about. What I do have my doubts are on the portrayal of the Soviets as being the only non peace loving force in the world. Let us look at the history of the Soviet Union and the US on expansion. Russia starts out as a the Muscovy Duchy which slowly spreads to throw out the Tarters. The US starts out as 13 colonies and throws out the English overlords. Russia then slowly but surely moves East to take overland from other people without there consent and basically exterminates any that getin there way. They fight wars with countries and take their land from them The US slowly but surely moves West to take land from other people without their consent and also exterminates any that get in their way. If you can argue this point go back and relearn US history. Read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. This is where the US Calverly wiped out 3000 men women and children when at a Religios ceremony. These people had no way tod efend themselves. Andrew Jackson forced marched the Cherokees and Cheyennes from Florida to West of the Missippi. This went against a Supreme Court decision calling the move unconstitutional. Jacksons answer was I have an army what can the Supreme Court use. Roughly some 5000 to 10000 people died on the move itself. These was during the winter and many more died directly after the move from starvation. The move is called the Trail of Tears. The US also stole land from Mexico in the glorious Mexican War. Russia fights various wars of agression with the Ottoman Empire Prussia Sweden and other countries. The US fights the British the Spanish and as mentioned before the Mexicans. (Russia becomes the Soviet Union) The Soviet Union takes over Eastern Europe. The US invades most of the countries in Central America and the Caribean setting up governments of its own. Personally I prefer the US over the Soviet Union and think the world will have a better shot at freedom with the US. But to make the SOviets look like the only agressors is ludicrous the US whole history is based on WAR. We murdered millions to get the land that we control today and tried to destroy whole cultures with that as policy. It was stated US policy until the 20th century to not only take Indian land but to destroy Indian culture. That people is not a benevolent society. We as Americans hopefully have learned from our past and I feel we have. Indians are still getting a raw deal but it is getting better. The government is trying to help restore lost culture. The Phillipians are a good example of the good influence that the US can have on nations. I feel that our actions in Nicaraguia are a step backwards and should be opposed. I feel our actions in suppoting the Afghan rebels is correct even if it is for the wrong reason. You must always try to look at yourself with the same glasses that you look at your enemy with. Brian Mahoney
michael@ucbiris.BERKELEY.EDU (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) (03/13/86)
In article <1637@decwrl.DEC.COM> mahoney@bartok.DEC writes: ... > (Russia becomes the Soviet Union) > > The Soviet Union takes over Eastern Europe. ... > Brian Mahoney Let us not forget that during this time frame, the U.S. invaded Russia during its civil war (and it wasn't on the Soviet side either).
greg@harvard.UUCP (Greg) (03/21/86)
In article <429@ucbjade.BERKELEY.EDU> michael@ucbiris.UUCP (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes: >Let us not forget that during this time frame, the U.S. invaded Russia during >its civil war (and it wasn't on the Soviet side either). No, let us forget this, because it is false. It is was a myth the last two times it came up in net.politics, and it is still a myth. The US sent 8,000 troops to Siberia during the Russian civil war. They did not fight a single battle. They were sent to help keep the Japanese troops in Siberia in check. The Japanese, by the way, sent 72,000 troops to Siberia. The Red Army had already enlisted several hundred thousand men, about 100,000 of which were engaged in the South with White armies numbering in the tens of thousands. Most of the rest of the Red Army was fighting White armies in Eastern Russia, which also numbered about 100,000 men, and included 40,000 Czechs. -- gregregreg
anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) (03/22/86)
In article <798@harvard.UUCP>, greg@harvard.UUCP (Greg) writes: >In article <429@ucbjade.BERKELEY.EDU> michael@ucbiris.UUCP (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes: > >Let us not forget that during this time frame, the U.S. invaded Russia during > >its civil war (and it wasn't on the Soviet side either). > > No, let us forget this, because it is false. It is was a myth the last two > times it came up in net.politics, and it is still a myth. The US sent 8,000 > troops to Siberia during the Russian civil war. They did not fight a single > battle. They were sent to help keep the Japanese troops in Siberia in check. > The Japanese, by the way, sent 72,000 troops to Siberia. The Red Army had > already enlisted several hundred thousand men, about 100,000 of which were > engaged in the South with White armies numbering in the tens of thousands. > Most of the rest of the Red Army was fighting White armies in Eastern Russia, > which also numbered about 100,000 men, and included 40,000 Czechs. Where are you coming from? The force sent in by Pres. Wilson had 100 some causalties from clashes with red forces. The governments of several western nations (UK ,France and I think some others) sent small forces to Russia. Nothing was really acclompished by them (except allowing soviet propagandist to show how the evil impiralistic Americans only want the destruction of the peace-loving Soviet Union (sounds like I'm from Berkley). steve anich
jacx@homxb.UUCP (J.CADLEY) (03/26/86)
x
U.S. forces were also involved in the Archangel landings. Severe combat
took place in this area. An excellent book exists concerning U.S.
involvement in the Russian Civil War. It is called "The Midnight War."
I don't recall the author's name. The book is not a giant tome, and I
believe it is a very good "read." Aside from a description of U.S.
military operations in Russia, the book also contains many interesting
B&W photos of the incursion, some political background, and a great
description of the adventures of the Czech Legion.
John Cadley
AT&T Consumer Products Labs
Neptune, NJ afb@pucc-i (Michael Lewis) (03/27/86)
In article <798@harvard.UUCP>, greg@harvard.UUCP (Greg) writes: > In article <429@ucbjade.BERKELEY.EDU> michael@ucbiris.UUCP (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes: > >Let us not forget that during this time frame, the U.S. invaded Russia during > >its civil war (and it wasn't on the Soviet side either). > > No, let us forget this, because it is false. It is was a myth the last two > times it came up in net.politics, and it is still a myth... Here's the REAL DEAL. The ALLIES sent an "expeditionary force" to Russia during the Revolution in the area of Archangel (a large port on the north coast of Russia) to recover cache's of Allied equipment sent to Russia during WW1. I believe that these troops may have encountered some Red Army troops while there, and were eventually withdrawn. I've never heard anything about Allied troops being sent to Siberia to watch the Japanese, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm not sure if I understand why the Allies would send 8,000 troops to Siberia to keep an eye on 72,000 troops of a nation that was on our side during WW1 in a nation that was being taken over by the "Red Menace". But, then again, logic never really had a whole lot to do with the international politics of that era.... Michael Lewis @ Purdue University