kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (Kim Nguyen) (02/25/89)
So I hear that your grad students and TAs are on strike now... I was wondering why I hadn't seen anything posted to this newsgroup concerning such an important event... Or are you strikers outside picketing and making mega-$$$ instead of reading this? :) --------------------------------------- Kim Nguyen (kim@watsup.waterloo.edu) Systems Design Engineering University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (02/26/89)
In article <8291@watcgl.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (Kim Nguyen) writes: >So I hear that your grad students and TAs are on strike now... >I was wondering why I hadn't seen anything posted to this newsgroup >concerning such an important event... One reason is that the science and engineering departments -- where the bulk of the Usenet readers are -- generally treat their TAs better than places like the English department. The real enthusiasm for the strike is in parts of the university that are too backward to have networks. -- The Earth is our mother; | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology our nine months are up. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
harrison@utfyzx.uucp (David Harrison) (02/27/89)
In article <1989Feb26.032807.14902@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >One reason [why there have been no postings about the T.A. strike] is > that the science and engineering departments ... generally treat their > TAs better than places like the English department. True I think. >The real enthusiasm for the strike >is in parts of the university that are too backward to have networks. And yet at least in Physics virtually 100% of our T.A.'s went out too. Given the perjorative nature of words like "scab", perhaps some feelings about democracy since the majority voted in favour of the strike, etc. this is not surprising to me. But some people in Physics are quite disappointed that our people went out since we really do try to treat our T.A.'s as well as possible given our financial constraints. -- David Harrison, Dept. of Physics, Univ. of Toronto | "Space and time are UUCP: {utgpu,sq,oscvax}!utfyzx!harrison | adverbs" BITNET: HARRISON@UTORPHYS | - Aleister Crowley
tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) (02/27/89)
In article <1989Feb26.184553.19463@utfyzx.uucp> harrison@utfyzx.UUCP (David Harrison) writes: > But some people in Physics >are quite disappointed that our people went out since we really do >try to treat our T.A.'s as well as possible given our financial >constraints. Some TA's who feel they are treated very well by their department are on strike. I feel that to not go on strike would be saying ``I'm OK, so F*** you, Jack'' to the TA's in other departments. It's not just the fear of being called a scab. I'm not striking against my department, I'm striking against the administration, and I really appreciate any support (even just understanding) from my department in this strike (not alot seems to be forthcoming, but maybe that's too hasty a judgement). This strike creates a real conflict of loyalties for TA's in departments which treat TA's well (at least for those who believe the union has a case and who feel some loyalty to the other TA's in the university). I've no desire to hurt my department or its faculty, and I hope that they don't take my striking as an action directed against them. I also intensly dislike deserting my students just around mid-term time. So, those who "really do try to treat our T.A.'s as well as possible": don't take the strike personally, and if you feel any support for the position of the union and its striking tutors, express it. Tony Plate (Department of Computer Science) -- ---------------- Tony Plate ---------------------- tap@ai.utoronto.ca ----- Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, 10 Kings College Road, Toronto, Ontario, CANADA M5S 1A4
clarke@csri.toronto.edu (Jim Clarke) (02/27/89)
In article <89Feb27.021748est.10863@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) writes: > Some TA's who feel they are treated very well by their department are on >strike. I feel that to not go on strike would be saying ``I'm OK, so F*** >you, Jack'' to the TA's in other departments. It's not just the fear of >being called a scab. I'm not striking against my department, I'm striking >against the administration, and I really appreciate any support (even just >understanding) from my department in this strike (not alot seems to be >forthcoming, but maybe that's too hasty a judgement). As the person who hires TA's in Computer Science -- the department referred to -- I think I have to say something here. What I have to say is that, first, I don't think I *do* "support the strike"; that is, I don't think I want the union to get what it's asking for. But, secondly, I haven't had to make the same decision the TA's have done, about whether or not to go on strike, and anyway I am of course in a different position from a TA, so I think I might rationally come to a different conclusion about the strike. But I can't see any reason for either of us to think the worse of the other. Or, if you like, I can try to treat you right without agreeing with you, and you can be grateful if you want while thinking I really haven't considered the issues very carefully. -- Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416) 978-4058 clarke@csri.toronto.edu or clarke@csri.utoronto.ca or ...!{uunet, pyramid, watmath, ubc-cs}!utai!utcsri!clarke
elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) (02/27/89)
In article <89Feb27.021748est.10863@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) writes: > So, those who "really do try to treat our T.A.'s as well as possible": >don't take the strike personally, and if you feel any support for the >position of the union and its striking tutors, express it. > Without expressing an opinion on the worthiness of this strike, might I point out that it is hard not to take the strike personally when my mail cannot be delivered or when my car (and my temper) is forced to overheat waiting for picketers to deign to let me through? I also point out that this behaviour creates ill will where none existed previously. -- Eugene Fiume Dynamic Graphics Project University of Toronto elf@dgp.toronto.edu
doc@dgp.toronto.edu (Blaine Price) (02/27/89)
In article <8902271547.AA15546@explorer.dgp.toronto.edu> elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) writes: >Without expressing an opinion on the worthiness of this strike, might I point >out that it is hard not to take the strike personally when my mail cannot >be delivered or when my car (and my temper) is forced to overheat waiting >for picketers to deign to let me through? I also point out that this >behaviour creates ill will where none existed previously. I'm definately no expert on the law pertaining to this, but don't the picketers have the right to do what they are doing? Under the law as I understand it, they are moving (so they aren't "loitering") and they are moving across normal pedestrian paths. The fact that they happen to decide to turn around upon reaching the other edge of the road and turn back is a matter of freedom of choice which just happens to inconvenience vehicular traffic (but pedestrians do have right of way in this province, right). So if the presence of the picketers bothers you, should you not complain to the University administration, since they are responsible for ensuring that your access to the university is not impaired? I've actually been quite curious as to the legal position of picketers since the beginning of this...are there any law keeners out there who know the answer? -- Blaine Price (416) 978-6619, fax: 4765 doc@dgp.utoronto.{ca,bitnet} Dynamic Graphics Project, Dept. of Computer Sci. doc@dgp.toronto.edu Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 ...!uunet!dgp.toronto.edu!doc "Who do I work FOR? I don't work FOR anyone! I'm just having fun."-The Doctor
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (02/27/89)
In article <89Feb27.021748est.10863@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) writes: >... I'm not striking against my department, I'm striking >against the administration... ... >...I've no >desire to hurt my department or its faculty, and I hope that they don't take >my striking as an action directed against them. I also intensly dislike >deserting my students just around mid-term time. Although the TAs may be striking 'against the administration', the people hurting the most are students. I know. I'm an undergraduate student. I've had my tutorials cancelled. I've had my access to classes blocked by picket lines. I've had tutors refuse to talk to me about academics. But I'm not nearly as affected as some of my friends, who feel completely lost. Do the TAs realize that they are playing with our lives? Our careers? Our futures? In numerous gangster movies, I've seen portrayals of mafioso hurting kids because of a dispute with their parents. In this strike, the TAs are hurting students because of a dispute with the administration. If you are truly concerned about your students, go back to work. Please? >---------------- Tony Plate ---------------------- tap@ai.utoronto.ca ----- >Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, >10 Kings College Road, Toronto, >Ontario, CANADA M5S 1A4 > John -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hofbauer@csri.toronto.edu (John Hofbauer) (02/27/89)
> ... perhaps some >feelings about democracy since the majority voted in favour of the >strike, etc. ... Yes, but I recall the margin was 58% in favour, which I don't consider an overwhelming mandate.
nixon@ai.toronto.edu (Brian Nixon) (02/27/89)
Two points: 1. It's fairly clear that students with departmental support (who are more frequent in the sciences) are not going to be personally as concerned with financial issues. E.g., with a $10 000 RA and $2 000 TA, people are not going to quibble whether their total income is $12 000 or $12 250. 2. It has been noted that some science departments (e.g., PHY, CSC) try to build a good relationship with TAs. So if it is not already happening, perhaps it would be a good idea for some of these departments to share their management expertise with other departments, so that the campus-wide situation is improved in the non-monetary areas. Brian.
lamy@ai.toronto.edu (Jean-Francois Lamy) (02/27/89)
| [...] In this strike, |the TAs are hurting students because of a dispute with the administration. | If you are truly concerned about your students, go back to work. Please? In the interest of fairness, can I ask why you did not feel it necessary to admonish the administration with something like: "If you are truly concerned about the students, go think about your position. Please?". There are at least two parties in most disputes... Jean-Francois Lamy lamy@ai.utoronto.ca, uunet!ai.utoronto.ca!lamy AI Group, Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (03/11/89)
I seem to have stirred up some deeply held opinions. But I'm not nearly
as irrational as Gerard seems to suggest.
I'll be glad to continue this discussion if Gerard would like to repost his
objections a little more calmly. But since the strike seems to be resolved
now, perhaps the issue should be dropped.
John
--
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John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net
jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn
{uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) (03/13/89)
In article <89Mar13.102317est.9395@ois.db.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") writes: > >In any case, the University is a victim of underfunding, not a cause. Striking >against the University doesn't seem to be a good way to tackle problems >whose root causes are underfunding. > Suppose that the university is a victim of underfunding, AND that this necessitates cutting back on TA's. (I don't accept that this conjunction is true, but suppose it is). Then, if the university community meekly accepts this without any internal and publically visible dissension, it sends a message to the govt that the underfunding is OK, and well, maybe the universities were overfunded before. However, if there is alot of strife and fighting about the allocation of the insufficient funds, then this sends a message that the underfunding is not OK. Now, obviously there *might* be better ways of sending such messages, so suggest them, don't just flame me about being a heartless TA willing to sacrifice countless ugrads lives just so I can afford eat caviar while relaxing in my jacuzzi doing my 15 minutes per semester of marking. Tony Plate -- ---------------- Tony Plate ---------------------- tap@ai.utoronto.ca ----- Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, 10 Kings College Road, Toronto, Ontario, CANADA M5S 1A4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (03/13/89)
In article <1989Mar10.161738.19609@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <89Mar9.140218est.9394@ois.db.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") writes: >>>... Nobody has actually tried to >>>DO anything about it until this strike, though. >> >>Rubbish. What about underfunding rallies? What about the pressure on the >>provincial government that is being applied from all quarters of the >>University on the issue of underfunding? ... > >What about them? They don't seem to be accomplishing diddly-squat. Note the 'tried to do anything' above. Whether or not underfunding rallies work, they most certainly are attempts to 'do something'. That's the only point I was trying to make. In any case, the University is a victim of underfunding, not a cause. Striking against the University doesn't seem to be a good way to tackle problems whose root causes are underfunding. >-- >Welcome to Mars! Your | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >passport and visa, comrade? | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) (03/14/89)
[ warning: a somewhat bitter and overly general assessment of the 3 Canadian Universities I have attended, worked for, or taught at. ] Asserting that a university is not responsible for large class sizes is preposterous. Even though funding is partially a function of enrolment, there comes a point where either resources must be added or enrolment cut, else quality of education will suffer. But university administrators often get blinkered by their budget, and too little attention is paid higher up to things like teaching ability or adequacy of classrooms. If you have a warm body at the blackboard and a door number to put in the time table, all is fine, and the more bodies on the chairs, the more money you get to feed a top-heavy administration that sometimes forgets it was put in place to serve students, teachers and researchers instead of perpetuating itself. [ ouf. ] Jean-Francois Lamy lamy@ai.utoronto.ca, uunet!ai.utoronto.ca!lamy AI Group, Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (03/14/89)
In article <89Mar13.135431est.11011@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tap@ai.toronto.edu (Tony Plate) writes: > ...if there is alot of strife >and fighting about the allocation of the insufficient funds, then this sends >a message that the underfunding is not OK. > Perhaps. But this labour dispute was limited to the university itself; it didn't directly affect the government. The government has a tendancy to ignore such things. >Now, obviously there *might* be better ways of sending such messages, so >suggest them, don't just flame me about being a heartless TA willing to >sacrifice countless ugrads lives just so I can afford eat caviar while >relaxing in my jacuzzi doing my 15 minutes per semester of marking. > OK... how about picketing Queen's Park for a week? That would send a much clearer message to the government about our concerns re: underfunding. And this time, I'll be glad to walk the picket line. BTW, could you spare a pound or two of caviar? :-) >Tony Plate > >-- >---------------- Tony Plate ---------------------- tap@ai.utoronto.ca ----- >Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, >10 Kings College Road, Toronto, >Ontario, CANADA M5S 1A4 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > John DiMarco -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (03/14/89)
In article <89Mar13.230408est.38098@neat.ai.toronto.edu> lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) writes: > >Asserting that a university is not responsible for large class sizes is >preposterous. > > ...But university administrators often get blinkered by >their budget, and too little attention is paid higher up to things like >teaching ability or adequacy of classrooms. There seems to be a direct historical correlation between underfunding and things like class size. That suggests that what the administration claims is correct: i.e. classes are large because of underfunding. You seem to be suggesting that the reason we have such large classes is that the administration just isn't concerned about class size. I think it more likely that the administration is concerned about class size, but doesn't have the financial means to do anything about it. This university's finances have been insufficient for a while. Rather than blame the administration for the effects of this, I think it is wiser to blame the government which is starving the university. > >Jean-Francois Lamy lamy@ai.utoronto.ca, uunet!ai.utoronto.ca!lamy >AI Group, Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dooley@helios.toronto.edu (Kevin Dooley) (03/14/89)
In article <89Mar13.102317est.9395@ois.db.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") writes: >In any case, the University is a victim of underfunding, not a cause. Striking >against the University doesn't seem to be a good way to tackle problems >whose root causes are underfunding. I have heard this argument many times. The University of Toronto IS underfunded. I think that we all agree. It is not nearly as poorly funded, however, as they would like you to believe. In January, it was announced that UofT had a 2.2 million dollar budgetary surplus. That isn't a lot of money, I realize, but it would certainly be preferable to spend that money on, say, education than administration. This is the key problem. The university has an enormous budget, a budget which could easily be used to hire more faculty and more TAs, a budget which could easily be used to further the cause of education on this campus. Far too small a fraction of it actually winds up being used for that, though. Underfunding is an issue, but budget allocation is perhaps a more serious issue. We would all be just a little bit better off if President Connell had not spent so very much money on redecorating his office. -- Kevin Dooley UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios.physics!dooley Physics Dept. BITNET - dooley@utorphys U. of Toronto INTERNET - dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") (03/15/89)
In article <744@helios.toronto.edu> dooley@helios.UUCP (Kevin Dooley) writes: > ...It is not nearly as poorly >funded, however, as they would like you to believe. In January, it >was announced that UofT had a 2.2 million dollar budgetary surplus. >That isn't a lot of money, I realize, but it would certainly be >preferable to spend that money on, say, education than administration. Every year, the university has either a budgetary surplus or a deficit. This year, it just happened to be a surplus, and not a very large one, either. Last year, the university had a deficit of roughly the same order of magnitude as this year's surplus. It's not a good idea to count on a share of surplus money; would you like to cough up some cash in a deficit year? I don't know how this surplus is being spent. Why do you think that it is being spent on administration? Perhaps you know something I don't. >This is the key problem. The university has an enormous budget, >a budget which could easily be used to hire more faculty and more >TAs, a budget which could easily be used to further the cause of >education on this campus. Far too small a fraction of it actually >winds up being used for that, though. Underfunding is an issue, >but budget allocation is perhaps a more serious issue. Is there any evidence that allocation is as severe a problem as you allege? What are the figures? How do you know that the administration is keeping for themselves a larger slice of the budgetary pie than they should keep? > ...We would >all be just a little bit better off if President Connell had not >spent so very much money on redecorating his office. How do you know his office didn't need redecorating? How much money was spent? If you allege there is waste, give facts. > >-- > Kevin Dooley UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios.physics!dooley > Physics Dept. BITNET - dooley@utorphys > U. of Toronto INTERNET - dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John DiMarco * We will live in the light * jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net jdd@db.toronto.edu jdd@db.utoronto.ca jdd.db.toronto.cdn {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri,decwrl!utcsri}!db!jdd jdd.utcsri.UUCP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
flaps@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) (03/16/89)
jdd@db.toronto.edu ("John D. DiMarco") writes: >OK... how about picketing Queen's Park for a week? That would send a much >clearer message to the government about our concerns re: underfunding. And >this time, I'll be glad to walk the picket line. I don't believe you. There have been demonstrations at Queen's Park about underfunding before. Have you ever attended one?