ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (11/27/85)
I would like to change stock brokers. Some time ago Charles Schwab
raised their rates. They have now changed their hours to be 6:30 to
3:30 local time. This is a pain. Does anyone have a suggestion
for someone with reasonable service at cheap rates? Reasonable
hours (later) or good mail service would also be appreciated.
--
E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems
'If you can dream it, you can do it' Walt Disney
This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but
not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war)mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (11/27/85)
>I would like to change stock brokers. Some time ago Charles Schwab >raised their rates. They have now changed their hours to be 6:30 to >3:30 local time. This is a pain. Does anyone have a suggestion >for someone with reasonable service at cheap rates? Reasonable >hours (later) or good mail service would also be appreciated. I recommend Rose. I have been using them for about 3 years. Very good back office and execution. Before that, I used Schwab - they consistently screwed up my accounts. I also occasionally use Quick and Reilly (sp?) - they are a little confused when tracking your orders, but they are very good in delivering certificates and checks. ...Larry Mazlack
cnrdean@ucbtopaz.BERKELEY.EDU (11/28/85)
I am very surprised at the dissatisfaction being expressed about Charles Schwabb. I use them with no problem. 1. My local office is in Walnut Creek. I have had no problems with them. When they are closed, I just use the 24 hour toll free number. It is great. Free, no hassle quotes, even in the middle of the night. This is nice, since I don't think about investments during the day. No advice. I use it when I am on vacation anywhere in the U.S. (although I haven't left California for many years). 2. They have never screwed up my accounts. 3. However, I have seen reports of discount brokers, which indicates that Schwabb isn't the least expensive. But, I am willing to pay a little more for a big, fiscally sound company. 4. I am open minded. I have never heard of "Rose". I am interested. Where do I (we) get in contact? Do they give 24 hour free quotes? Sam Scalise
mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (11/28/85)
> >I am very surprised at the dissatisfaction being expressed about >Charles Schwabb. I use them with no problem. > > >2. They have never screwed up my accounts. > >4. I am open minded. I have never heard of "Rose". I am interested. >Where do I (we) get in contact? Do they give 24 hour free quotes? > Schwabb (about 2-3 years ago, I think) had massive book keeping problems which affected quite a lot of people. In my case, they created several different types of accounts for me (about 4 in all), credited payments against one account and margined stocks held in other accounts because the payments were credited wrong. At the same time, I had extra commisions because they split orders (i.e., had more than one transaction to satisfy an order when the transaction was to have been a single buy - to do this you specify "all or none"). I contacted everybody possible, including the FEC to sort out my extra charges. Unfortunately, it wasn't completely cleared up to my satisfaction. [I only wanted to operate a single, cash account.) Rose is owned by the Chase Manhattan Bank. It was taken over while an operating entity (just as Schwabb is owned by Bank of America). Both operate as independent subsidaries (different than directly using a bank as a broker - which I don't recommend). Rose is headquartered in Chicago, Schwabb in San Francisco (I think). Schwabb is the largest discount broker, Rose the second largest. Rose's number: 800-621-3700 I don't know if Rose has a 24 hour line. They always answer when I call during West Coast business hours tho. I've never tried otherwise. They do have a program that will let you keep a list of your stocks in their machine so you can track current value and profit/loss. (I don't use this because I am reluctant for anyone to know all that I own.) I certainly agree that you should only deal with sound companies. I usually go with Rose because of the quality of their execution and book work. However, if you are happy with someone else, why change? (Assuming you take delivery of the certificates.) The reasons that I use two brokers are: (a) not having everyone know all my assets, (b) having a developed relationship with another broker incase I get into a dispute with my current one, (c) when buying penny stocks, there is a substantial difference between broker costs, even discount brokers. ...Larry Mazlack
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (11/28/85)
> I would like to change stock brokers. Some time ago Charles Schwab > raised their rates. They have now changed their hours to be 6:30 to > 3:30 local time. This is a pain. Does anyone have a suggestion > for someone with reasonable service at cheap rates? Reasonable > hours (later) or good mail service would also be appreciated. > E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems I think the discount rates at schwab are just as good or better than anyone else. Also the hours are 24 hours per day, 7 days per week for information or orders. ( I think some of these only apply to the schwab 1 account) mark
lmiller@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/02/85)
The discussion on problems with Schwab brings up a general problem with brokers--you should assume that they are all incompetent. I have had substantial difficulties over the years with Dean Witter. Late/slow buy and sell execution. Buys or sells attributed to other people's accounts, slow or nonexistent monthly statements. Bizarre margin rates. Unexplainable "journal entries" of transfers of cash. Slow crediting of interest or dividends to account, etc. I urge anyone dealing with a broker to examine all transactions closely; shop for best margin rates; take personal deliverly of certificates on cash sales, and be very, very careful with orders, credits and debits to account. L. Miller
mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (12/04/85)
>The discussion on problems with Schwab brings up a general problem with >brokers--you should assume that they are all incompetent. I have had >substantial difficulties over the years with Dean Witter. Late/slow buy >and sell execution. Buys or sells attributed to other people's accounts, >slow or nonexistent monthly statements. Bizarre margin rates. >Unexplainable "journal entries" of transfers of cash. Slow crediting of >interest or dividends to account, etc. Absolutely. I trade regularily (about every two weeks) and they regularily can mess up. The prime reason I deal mostly with Rose know is that over about a hundred trades, they haven't messed up yet. This doesn't mean that they won't. One thing that they do that I like is that they tape all of your conversations. When a dispute arises, they replay the tape to you over the telephone (it usually is done the same day the question arises). Because the dollar difference from one discount broker to the other is not very large, I would choose on the basis of execution and book work. (I do occasionally trade with a "full service" broker - when they provide critical information; however, 95% of my trading is done with either Rose or Quick&Reilly.) > >I urge anyone dealing with a broker to examine all transactions closely; Right on. I have had all sorts of problems. The worst against me was when MLPFS bought 10,000 shares instead of 100, the stock went down, and then they tried to have me make it good. After a little discussion, they agreed to eat it. I write this off to a broker error that they were willing to correct - I have no bitch with them as they were willing to fix their mistake. However, with Schwab, I never was able to set things right. (Because of a lot of complaints like mine, Schwab promised the SEC to do better.) >shop for best margin rates; take personal deliverly of certificates on >cash sales, and be very, very careful with orders, credits and debits to >account. > >L. Miller Absolutely take delivery. So far this year, there have been 10 broker failures (according to yesterday's Wall Street Journal). Any of them can fail, for example, Bache did. Even if they don't fail, they can and do loose track of certificates. ...Larry Mazlack
gnu@l5.uucp (John Gilmore) (12/04/85)
Can anybody recommend one way or another on Kennedy, Cabot and Co. as a discount broker? They claim to be cheaper than Schwab (and I really hate to put my money into the care of Bank of Sicily, oops I mean Bank of America).
morse@leadsv.UUCP (Terry Morse) (12/05/85)
> > Absolutely take delivery. So far this year, there have been 10 broker > failures (according to yesterday's Wall Street Journal). Any of them > can fail, for example, Bache did. Even if they don't fail, they can > and do loose track of certificates. > ...Larry Mazlack I'm confused. Aren't brokerage housed insured? They advertise that your securities are insured up to $1 million or some amount like that. I thought that was supposed to protect you against broker failures. I have never taken possession of my certificates, citing the hassle of traveling back and forth from broker to safety deposit box as the reason. Am I taking an undue risk by not taking possession? Has anyone lost any money in these recent broker failures?
mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) (12/05/85)
In article <11135@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mazlack@ernie.UUCP (Lawrence J. Mazlack) writes: > . . . > >shop for best margin rates; take personal deliverly of certificates on > >cash sales, and be very, very careful with orders, credits and debits to > >account. > > > >L. Miller > > Absolutely take delivery. So far this year, there have been 10 broker failures > (according to yesterday's Wall Street Journal). Any of them can fail, for > example, Bache did. Even if they don't fail, they can and do loose track > of certificates. > ...Larry Mazlack I can't agree with the idea of taking delivery of certificates. They are simply a pain to deal with, and when they are in your possession, you are responsible for loss or destruction. You are protected in case of failure by SIPC (Yeah, I know, dealing with anybody after a default is a ROYAL pain), and otherwise you don't have to WORRY about the certificates; you have your confirmation of purchase slip and your monthly statement. [There is really nothing to lose track of; the actual certificates live in a vault in New York or New Jersey somewhere and the brokers just trade ownership of them with an online accounting system.] Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb
karl@vrdxhq.UUCP (Karl Nyberg) (12/05/85)
I have been buying and selling stock regularly with Q&R, and have
found them to be excellent, both in terms of rates and other
amenities. One thing in particular was the reissue of a check that
my bank (!) had lost in depositing without any difficulty whatsoever.
I have enclosed some of my trades and commission fees / percentages
for those who are interested. $35.00 minimum up to 1000 shares, and
$50.00 minimum over 1000 shares.
#shares PRICE TOTAL COMMIS PERCENT
======= ===== ===== ====== =======
200.00 17.25 3450.00 46.37 1.34
100.00 16.75 1675.00 35.00 2.09
1000.00 5.50 5500.00 50.00 0.91
1400.00 4.50 6300.00 57.64 0.91
1000.00 4.88 4875.00 50.00 1.03
3000.00 5.50 16500.00 115.70 0.70
--
-- Karl
--
DDN: nyberg@eclb, nyberg@utexas-20, Nyberg@mit-multics
UUCP: ...!{rlgvax, seismo, trwatf, umcp-cs, verdix}!vrdxhq!karlmazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (12/05/85)
> >I can't agree with the idea of taking delivery of certificates. They >are simply a pain to deal with, and when they are in your possession, >you are responsible for loss or destruction. You are protected in >case of failure by SIPC (Yeah, I know, dealing with anybody after a >default is a ROYAL pain), and otherwise you don't have to WORRY about >the certificates; you have your confirmation of purchase slip and your >monthly statement. [There is really nothing to lose track of; the >actual certificates live in a vault in New York or New Jersey >somewhere and the brokers just trade ownership of them with an online >accounting system.] > >Michael C. Berch Not really. If the broker keeps the certificate, the broker can carry your "ownership" of the stock as a ledger entry without aquiring the stock from someone else. Furthermore, the broker is able to borrow against YOUR stock, for the broker's benefit. Both of these activities, complicate retrieving your stock in the case of failure. Also, if a failure does occur, and they DO OCCCUR regularily, your stock will be frozen for months - you will not be able to sell it or borrow on it. The SIPC will PROBABLY eventually get your stock back for you, but if you sustain a loss during the period (either because the stock price goes against you, tax reasons, or hedge strategies), the loss is yours. ...Larry Mazlack
cnrdean@ucbtopaz.BERKELEY.EDU (12/05/85)
1. I was very tempted by Schwabs repeated suggestions that I let them hold my certificates. They even offer a free gift in exchange. But, I have held off. And after reading about the problems of others, ... no way. 2. I called the 800 number provided for Rose a while back, but got no answer. Maybe I copied it down wrong. Could someone repeat it? 3. And now, to the point: How about exchanging 'hot stock' tips? I do my own research, and have done quite well. (Of course so has just about everybody lately.) But, I would sure like to exchange ideas with others -- not a broker. 4. I have the impression that most stock brokers would try to sell you stock in anything if they thought you would. A secretary in our office told me she bought 2 (two) shares of PG&E from Merril Lynch. With that kind of volume, wouldn't that stock have to go up about 300% before she could break even? Sam Scalise
brett@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/06/85)
> Not really. If the broker keeps the certificate, the broker can carry > your "ownership" of the stock as a ledger entry without aquiring the stock > from someone else. Furthermore, the broker is able to borrow against YOUR > stock, for the broker's benefit. Both of these activities, complicate > retrieving your stock in the case of failure. No way. In a cash account a broker MAY NOT borrow against YOUR stock for the broker's benefit. It's only in a margin account where that can be done. In the latter case you can't get delivery of the stock anyhow. > > Also, if a failure does occur, and they DO OCCCUR regularily, your stock > will be frozen for months - you will not be able to sell it or borrow on it. > The SIPC will PROBABLY eventually get your stock back for you, but if you > sustain a loss during the period (either because the stock price goes > against you, tax reasons, or hedge strategies), the loss is yours. > > ...Larry Mazlack The selling issue is easy. You sell short with another broker and when the stock is unfrozen deliver your certificates. It will cost you margin charges; maybe not even that if you appeal it - I'm not sure. I don't know how to handle the borrowing issue. -- Brett Fleisch University of California Los Angeles LOCUS Research Group 3804-f Boelter Hall Los Angeles, CA 90024 Phone: (213) 825-2756, (213) 474-5317 brett@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...sdcrdcf, ihnp4, trwspp, ucbvax}!ucla-cs!brett -------------------------------------------------------------------------
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (12/06/85)
In article <17008@styx.UUCP> mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: > >I can't agree with the idea of taking delivery of certificates. They >are simply a pain to deal with, and when they are in your possession, >you are responsible for loss or destruction. You are protected in >case of failure by SIPC (Yeah, I know, dealing with anybody after a >default is a ROYAL pain), and otherwise you don't have to WORRY about >the certificates; you have your confirmation of purchase slip and your >monthly statement. There speaks a man who's probably never had a broker go belly-up on him. I have and I can tell you it's more than a pain. It's expensive. When a broker goes into bankruptcy it can take the receivers _months_ or even _years_ to sort out who owns what on their accounts. While they're doing that you have _no access to your stocks at all_. If the price of a stock starts to fall and you want to sell you're out of luck and there's _nothing_ you can do about it. All you can do is watch your assets dwindle while the lawyers and bean counters argue over which ones are really yours. I _always_ take delivery of my certificates. As for safety, that's what safe deposit boxes are for (where do you think brokers keep them?). Cost of the box is even tax deductible when used for this purpose. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp(+)TTI The more I work with C, the more I 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. appreciate the simple elegance of Santa Monica, CA 90405 FORTRAN. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (12/07/85)
>> >> Absolutely take delivery. So far this year, there have been 10 broker >> failures (according to yesterday's Wall Street Journal). Any of them >> can fail, for example, Bache did. Even if they don't fail, they can >> and do loose track of certificates. >> ...Larry Mazlack > >I'm confused. Aren't brokerage housed insured? They advertise that your >securities are insured up to $1 million or some amount like that. I thought >that was supposed to protect you against broker failures. > >I have never taken possession of my certificates, citing the hassle of >traveling back and forth from broker to safety deposit box as the reason. >Am I taking an undue risk by not taking possession? Has anyone lost any >money in these recent broker failures? Right, most of the brokers are insured. But, the insurance only protects you against outright loss of the certificate. It doesn't help you straighten out your account when they have fouled up because of book work. And most of the failures occur because of this kind of problem. Also, what happens is that your account is *frozen* while they try to straighten out what who owes what to whom. This is not always so simple, as your *ownership* of a stock held by your broker could be just a journal entry for stocks that the broker holds for himself. These stocks, the broker will probably be using as security for the broker's own loans. This in turn makes it murky as to the true ownership of the stock. The basic problem in having your account *frozen* is that you cannot get out of a position UNTIL most everything is resolved. Unless one broker takes over another, this will take months. This can hurt if the stock price goes against you (either down for something you own, or up for something you are short in). There are also several hedge strategies dealing with options and stocks that can be devastating if your account is frozen. I'm not sure what happens to options positions; but I think they are also untouchable (this is what happens with commodities) and you win or loose accordingly. (However, as you can't take possesion of an option's certificate, this isn't germane to the question of taking possesion of stock/bond certificates.) Another advantage of holding your own certificates is that you can go to a bank and borrow against them (of course, depending on your broker, you may also be able to do this with stocks the broker holds). ...Larry Mazlack
mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) (12/08/85)
C'mon, folks. Think for a minute and contrast the odds of your broker
going belly up (which happens, but not very often) with the number of
things that can happen if you take delivery of your certificates, like:
1. You lose them.
2. They are stolen.
3. They are destroyed by fire, flood, etc.
4. They get lost in the mail being sent to/from a broker.
Never mind the obnoxiousness of having to travel to and from the bank.
I find dealing with banks even less fun than dealing with brokers and
try to limit my personal visits to depositing paychecks and hitting up
the ATM for cash and paying credit card bills.
For those of you who still have the idea in your mind of your brokers
handling share certificates and "keeping track of them", forget it.
THERE ISN'T ANYTHING TO KEEP TRACK OF. It's all software and spinning
disks, folks. If a Merrill Lynch customer sells 100 shares of XYZ to a
Schwab customer, no paper changes hands. Stock certificates live in a
repository and change hands only on paper and electronically, until somebody
wants 'em delivered personally. If your broker holds your stocks in
street name (that's the trade term for holding the stock for you) and ever
gives you any jive about "losing track of the certificates", contact your
lawyer and the SEC, in that order. THEY ARE DEFRAUDING YOU. No one ever
even SEES the certificates.
Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcbems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (12/09/85)
> > I would like to change stock brokers. Some time ago Charles Schwab > > raised their rates. They have now changed their hours to be 6:30 to > > 3:30 local time. This is a pain. Does anyone have a suggestion > > I think the discount rates at schwab are just as good or better > than anyone else. Also the hours are 24 hours per day, 7 days per week > for information or orders. ( I think some of these only apply to > the schwab 1 account) > The problem with office hours (not everything can be done over the phone) manifests when one must deliver certificates to the broker ... Especially if one gets up late and has a boss who expects a full days work ... As per rates, I am most interested in playing (yes, really playing) with penny stocks. The rates for these vary tremendously. If someone knows of a cheap broker for penny stocks, I would love to hear. -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.