rcook@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU (12/28/85)
Does anyone read this??????
What I want to know is: what is the best way to go about collecting coins
for investment purposes?
Is there a good book to read?
What I would like to do, is make enough money
trading coins to pay interest on the money I
borrow to buy the coins.
Is all this possible or am I dreaming?
etc...
any help will be greatly appreciated
Rob Cook
UUCP: {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!rcook
'Life is just a cocktail party on the street'
-Mick Jagger- dave@cylixd.UUCP (Dave Kirby) (12/31/85)
In article <23300005@uiucuxc> rcook@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU writes: > >Does anyone read this?????? Yes. >What I want to know is: what is the best way to go about collecting >coins for investment purposes? Is there a good book to read? Your local library should have several books about collecting coins for investment purposes. I don't know of any specific book to recommend. You are basically safe if you stick with reputable dealers and the MS ratings. That way you don't have to learn how to examine coins yourself (although it never hurts to know how to double-check the dealers). >What I would like to do, is make enough money >trading coins to pay interest on the money I >borrow to buy the coins. > >Is all this possible or am I dreaming? It is VERY possible, considering that the price of many numismatic coins (especially gold and silver ones) has skyrocketed over the last few decades, some coins doubling every couple of years or so. You might consider subscribing to a coin advisement newsletter to get the latest tips on what coins are most popular or are most likely to become popular. Be aware, though, that by the time you get the newsletter, everyone else has gotten it too and will tend to bid the price up before you get a chance to get in. From what I have observed, coin collecting is starting to become VERY popular some among investors, but most investors still haven't gotten in on it. It appears to me to be a chain-letter scheme that you can get in on the ground floor on, so it could be a very lucrative field if you get in before the general public. Just get in in time to be able to be a seller when the public finally enters the field in droves, and you can sell to the neophytes at the then-greatly-inflated prices. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Kirby ( ...!ihnp4!akgub!cylixd!dave)
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (12/31/85)
--
A good friend of mine has accumulated an extensive collection
of ancient (Greek, Roman, Byzantine) coins. I asked him about
numismatics as an investment, and his advice was to get into
coins only if I wanted to collect them. As an investment (says
he), the return is not that great overall, and you've got
to follow the market and the catalogs very closely. Apparently
a coin's value is all in its quality rating, and these are
highly subjective. For a while, many large corporations were
buying whole coin collections, driving prices very high, but
they've apparently stopped. So, the market now is what it
used to be--other collectors, whose tastes may be very fickle.
I had asked my friend if there was a particular type of coin
or particular coin itself to invest in. After the above schpiel,
he said, "so you might as well buy Maple Leafs--their future is
anybody's guess, but at least you'll know where you stand."
--
*** ***
JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** *****
****** ****** 31 Dec 85 [11 Nivose An CXCIV]
ken perlow ***** *****
(312)979-7753 ** ** ** **
..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***barr@calma.UUCP (Ken Barr) (01/04/86)
In article <643@cylixd.UUCP> dave@cylixd.UUCP (Dave Kirby) writes: >In article <23300005@uiucuxc> rcook@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU writes: >> >>What I want to know is: what is the best way to go about collecting >>coins for investment purposes? Is there a good book to read? > > You are basically safe if you stick with reputable dealers >and the MS ratings. That way you don't have to learn how to examine >coins yourself (although it never hurts to know how to double-check >the dealers). > Oh, were it that easy! Speaking as a part-time coin dealer who OFTEN is offered someone's "prize investments" at coin shows, I can attest to the following two facts: 1) There are no reputable coin dealers (except me, of course! :-)) (Seriously, this means that NO dealer has UNIVERSAL recognition as a "good guy". Some coins seem to "gain value" based on who sold it, but this is extremely rare -- usually only when the dealer is the author of a standard reference book on the subject.) 2) If you don't know how to examine (evaluate) the coins before buying them, you are going to get stuck. (Maybe not the first few times when the seller is "hooking" the uninformed investor, but almost certainly the last few times ---- often as the seller is finishing his dream house complete with moat in the Oregon wilderness!) Few people are able to resist the opportunity to make money when someone comes up and says "Here's xxxxx dollars ---- I want you to sell me something and I trust you to give me a good deal". This applies to coin dealers just as it does to stockbrokers, real estate agents and used car dealers. My standing recommendation re investing in coins is to invest the time and effort in researching and understanding coins before committing any large amounts of $$. Buy books ("High Profits from Rare Coin Investments" by Q. David Bowers), read newspapers (write "Coin World, P. O. Box 150, Sidney, Ohio 45367" for a free sample copy), go to coin club meetings in your area, attend coin shows, talk to other collectors, etc. THEN, when you are comfortable in your understanding of the area, start an informed collection/investment program. Common sense, but often ignored! 'Nuf said. -- Ken Barr {ucbvax,sun,csd-gould}!calma!barr Calma Company calma!barr@ucbvax.ARPA Disclaimer: Calma lets me use their computers and their mailstops. Unless policy has changed, my opinions should not be considered as gospel.
wan@gatech.CSNET (Peter N. Wan) (01/05/86)
Hey, just what I needed.... A lead-in to a question of my own. This
all started when I got a call from Global Rare Coin, Inc. They had
apparently gotten my name from a mailing list of potential investors,
and wanted to get me into the coin investment market.
The Global representative then proceeded to point out the benefits of
collecting rare coins, such as 25.7% average annual compounded gain
(return over the past 10 years), high expected future return (according
to them, conservatively projected to be 25 to 30%), free market (no
governmental regulation), supply/demand market, etc. The mainstay of
their investment vehicles seems to be the Morgan Silver Dollar. They
were recommending investments with the Morgan, and then planned to
diversify into other coinage, including gold coins after about 18 or 24
months, when they thought that the market might not be so favorable for
the Morgan.
Despite the brochures and other information (some of which I noted
above), I still didn't think that I wanted to step into something like
that without finding out more. I also wasn't keen on going into
something that I did not have a good background in. Although they
would provide the advice (help you look at the "Coin Dealer
Newsletter", or gray sheet), do the selling/buying for you, etc., I
wanted to see what other people's experiences were.
Has anyone had any dealings with the Global Rare Coin company? They use
a coin grading firm here in Atlanta to grade their investments. Has anyone
had any experience with other coin brokers? What should I be looking for
when dealing with such people? If responses are mailed, I will summarize
if necessary.
--
Peter N Wan
UUCP : ...!{akgua,allegra,ihnp4,rlgvax,ut-ngp,ut-sally}!gatech!wan
ARPA : Wan%GaTech.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.Arpa CSNET : Wan@GaTechdave@cylixd.UUCP (Dave Kirby) (01/06/86)
>> You are basically safe if you stick with reputable dealers >>and the MS ratings. That way you don't have to learn how to examine >>coins yourself (although it never hurts to know how to double-check >>the dealers). [KIRBY] >Oh, were it that easy! ...I can attest to the following two facts: > 1) There are no reputable coin dealers... > 2) If you don't know how to examine (evaluate) the coins before > buying them, you are going to get stuck... >My standing recommendation re investing in coins is to invest the >time and effort in researching and understanding coins before >committing any large amounts of $$... [BARR] Thank you, Mr. Barr, for pointing out the naivete of my first posting; you have undoubtedly saved me and a lot of others a great deal of money. So, if one wants to get into coins for purely investment purposes, but is not bent on being a numismatic, how about investment in uncirculated coins only? Are there any caveats concerning them? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Kirby ( ...!ihnp4!akgub!cylixd!dave)
tna@tikal.UUCP (Tom Anderson) (01/08/86)
Be careful. Grading of coins is difficult but, yet, crucial. Generally, such dealers recommend MS-65 coins for investment purposes. An MS-65 coin typically sell for five times an MS-63 coin and not many neophyte coin investers can accurately discern the difference between an MS-65 and MS-63 coin. A classic ploy is to sell a coin as an MS-65 (that is really an MS-63) at a price somewhat lower than what a true MS-65 is worth but much higher than the MS-63 is worth. The buyer thinks he got a great deal until he tries to resell a few years later. -- Thomas N. Anderson ...uw-beaver!teltone!tna Teltone Corporation, 10801 120th Ave NE, Kirkland, WA 98033 (206) 827-9626
marcos@sdchema.UUCP (David A. Pearlman) (01/08/86)
Well, O.K. I've waited long enough; time to put my two cents in on this
issue (no pun intended).
I started collecting coins as a kid, in the late '60's. At this time
coins still hadn't caught on as a major league INVESTMENT; rather, they
were by and large a hobby for those who were interested, albeit a lucrative
one for those with experience and foresight. It wasn't until the early-to-mid
'70's that coins were perceived by the *general public* as a way to make money.
Unfortunately, associated with coins are numerous intangibles/fine points
which may present serious pitfalls to the casual investor: While stock
or gold has a concrete value based on the open market, the value of coin
depends greatly upon (among other things) condition. And no matter what
anyone tells you, there is no fail-proof, completely objective way of
grading coins (except, perhaps, proof issues...).
It wasn't always this way. Until the INVESTORS came into the coin market,
(i.e. the mid-70's), coins were generally assigned one of several broad
grades: about-good, good, very good, fine, etc. While there might still
be some ambiguity at the boarders of these classifications (as well as
for issues such as a scarcly circulated coin on a highly pitted planchet;
but that's another issue), acceptable grading wasn't too hard (and was
made even easier by photo-guides such as Photograde). When the investors
came, grading gradually moved over to the now-used number system, with
its emphasis on minor differences. It could be argued that the emphasis
on minor differences is only really acknowledged at the high end. But
high grade coins are in fact the group most often sold for investment purposes.
At any rate, it has now gotten to the point that you may pay 2 or 3 times
the normal price for a particular specimen because it is ms63 grade instead
of ms60. Can anyone tell the difference? Yes, a trained eye can. But
unless you're truly a numismatist, you probably won't be able to. Which
means that if you're Joe-investor, and the dealer from which you buy
your coins from isn't both good *and* honest, you may find yourself
with a bum steer. Very costly...and as I noted, many, if not most coins
hawked as "investments" by the coin brokerages are in these superior
grades (or at least are supposed to be).
Another problem is that of "sliders" or coins which could have been uncirculated
(ms60) maybe, once, perhaps, if you close your left eye and squint real hard
:-). Good, reputable dealers will sell these coins as such, and they command
prices significantly lower than ms60 specimens. Other dealers will
sell them to the unsuspecting investor as ms60, maybe as a below-market
"good deal". A rude awakening awaits anyone who tries to sell these babies.
Unfortunately, a large number of dealers can be found who sell these
types of coins as uncirculated. There are variations on this theme, too,
such as the technique of "whizzing", whereby slightly circulated copper
coins (especially large cents) are made to look brilliantly uncirculated--
to the untrained investor. There are others, many of which I observed
when I worked in a coin store as a kid.
Yet another pitfall for the investor in coins is the fact that there is
no national market system for coins, since they are not an objectively
definable commodity. What this means is that the value of a particular
coin is really what someone will give you for it. In this way coins
can be thought of in the same way as art. Now, there are price guides,
the most familiar being the Redbook. But these are only guides (and
Redbook tends to list inflated values; I'd steer clear of anyone
who boasts they're giving you a 'deal' by selling coins below Redbook).
When I was more active, they published a listing called the "grey sheet",
which was primarily circulated among coin shops. I'm not sure if it's
published anymore, but it was about the best place to get coin prices--
they were current (it was published weekly) and fairly reliable
(both wholesale and retail were listed). However, its listing were
not complete. Frequently published price lists in coin journals
(Coin World, etc.) tend to be a little better than Redbook (because
they're more current), but still tend to be inflated, especially
if you're interested in the price you'll get from a dealer if you
want to *sell*. Probably the best way to determine coin prices is
to look at ads from dealers you know are reputable (*beware of
lowball prices; the coins are almost always overgraded--this is not
usually a problem with reputable dealers, but...*). The prices
won't be up to the minute (since there are no daily journals carrying
significant numbers of coin ads), but most prices don't change much
from day to day anyway (except, perhaps, bullion coins, which change
with prices of silver/gold, etc.). Of course, if you have very rare
coins (test patterns, super-keys, etc.) you may never see them advertised
at all. I guess then you'll just have to go to a legitamate appraiser
(if you can find one).
As for the question someone raised about being able to sell coins
for what you paid for them very soon after purchase: if you bought
them from a brokerage house, forget it. They sell them to you
at a profit, not with a commission. If you try to sell them back,
you've got to expect that you'll get less. Of course, it's entirely
likeley that they'll go up in time (if you bought them from
a reputable source). But the keyword is time. You *can* make "overnight"
money, but you won't as a casual investor; you've really got to know
your coins. Considering my investments, I made a good amount of money
when I worked in the coin store ("Leo's Coin Shop", Phoenix, AZ--if
any of you netters remember it). But I knew coins. Particularly
good was the weekly "bid-board" we had. Sometimes perfectly good
coins were overlooked, and could be had for a song. I remember
an extremely fine copy of a 1919 liberty half dollar that I bought
for about $1.25. It's worth more than 100X that now (and is happily
sitting in a safe deposit box somewhere...). If you know your stuff,
bid-boards and coins shows can be great places to make some quick
money. But if you're just an investor...forget it.
The bottom line? I guess I'd say that I think coins *are* a good investment.
But either take the time to really learn about them before investing,
or deal with someone who you trust implicitly. I'd be wary of
"Joe's Smorgasboard and Rare Coins Ltd. Inc of Indiana," even if
they claim that all their investors have quadrupled their money in the
last week :-). And remember: fancy literature filled with persuasive
arguments is cheap (as are "800" lines).
Hope this answers at least a few of your questions.
David ("Dr. DAP") Pearlman
"And all this science I don't understand...
It's just my job five days a week" -- Elton Johnbillr@ISM780B.UUCP (01/10/86)
Is it possible to "legally" clean coins? That is, improve their appearance without the intention to deceive. I have some old circulated silver dollars that I have no intention of trading, but they unfortunately have strips of Scoth tape residue across them from incredibly naive handling when I was but a sprout. I'd like to clean them up somehow, but have no idea as to how to go about it, and I don't want to damage them any further. Ideas?? Bill UUCP: cca!ima!ism780b!billr ARPA: RIZZI@ISIB
ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (01/10/86)
One point I have not seen mentioned so far, and an important one, is
that when you buy a coin you must *TAKE CARE* of it.
The difference between ms63 an ms65 is so minute, that storing at
the wrong humidity, near the wrong plastic or wood composite material,
or even touching or *cleaning* the coin can destroy much of the
value. (then there's paint fumes, and ...)
While raw gold and silver don't loose value with nicks or tarnish,
a rare coin is turned into a junk coin. If you don't know how to
preserve coins, stay away from them. (I destroyed three before I
got it right, but then again I was about 10 yrs old at the time...)
--
E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems
This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.