POLARIS@USC-ISI.ARPA (07/20/84)
One of my end users is hot for APL and would like an APL system for the P.C. Can anyone out there recommend a good APL system for the IBM PC? In addition, is there a PC compatable APL keyboard available in the market? Any leads you can provide will be appreciated. Gene Cartier Polaris Inc 1400 Wilson Blvd, Suite 1100 Arlington, VA 22209 (703)527-7333
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (07/23/84)
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Sorry for posting this instead of mailing, but I can't get mail to
ARPA sites going...
I have had experience with several different PC APL's:
STSC APL*PLUS/PC is, in my opinion, an excellent product, even if it
is somewhat highly proced. The new version (3.0 I think) provides DOS
2.x support, keyword forms and online help. The APL is loaded with
system functions, supports APL and DOS files and is quite fast. The
manuals (4 PC-style binders) are well-written and comprehensive, and a
copy of APL: An Interactive Approach is included. Recommended.
WATCOM APL is a considerably lower-proced product, and is missing many
of the features of STSC APL (such as real full-screen editing). It is
also quite slow, and the mauals are rather skimpy. Like the STSC, it
includes a character generator ROM, and supports the 8087.
IBM APL I have the least experience with: however, I can tell you
that it requires (a) a colour/graphics adapter (and will not display
upper/lower case at the same time as APL characters) and (b) the 8087.
It's comparable in speed to STSC, but is missing the numerous system
functions, instead having `auxiliary processors' like VS APL does.
From my brief exposure, I prefer STSC.
There is no need to buy an APL keyboard; you simply place APL stickers
on the keys (or if you've used APL a lot, there is no need for even
that). The system will automatically switch to the APL character set
when you get into APL.
Tom Haapanen
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanenark@rabbit.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (07/27/84)
Tom Happanen states that IBM APL for the PC will not display upper/lower case characters at the same time as APL characters. This is false. Some of us think that APL systems that are "loaded with system functions" are baroque.
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (07/28/84)
. > Tom Happanen [sic] states that IBM APL for the PC will not display upper/lower > case characters at the same time as APL characters. This is false. If I was wrong, I stand corrected. However, consider the following: The IBM APL does not use a different character generator ROM. Instead, it uses the colour/graphics card's facility to redefine the character set in software, which only allows for the use of 128 characters at a time. I am amazed if IBM managed to squeeze uppper and lower case (total: 52 chars), numbers (10 chars), APL symbols (around 45 at least, not counting overstrikes) and other punctuation into 127 characters! They definitely left out things like line drawing characters and foreign language symbols (all of which are in STSC's APL) if this is the case. > Some of us think that APL systems that are "loaded with system functions" > are baroque. Hmmm... if you want to be able to do things (graphics, screen controls, files, DOS access, ...) you have to access them somehow. You can always go to VM to use auxiliary processors, right? :-) Tom "Yes, people, there really are two 'A's there" Haapanen {allegra,decvax,ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanen Naturally, I'm in no way affiliated with STSC (which is probably a trademark)
ark@rabbit.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (07/28/84)
>> Tom Haapanen states that IBM APL for the PC will not display upper/lower >> case characters at the same time as APL characters. This is false. > If I was wrong, I stand corrected. However, consider the following: > The IBM APL does not use a different character generator ROM. > Instead, it uses the colour/graphics card's facility to redefine the > character set in software, which only allows for the use of 128 > characters at a time. I am amazed if IBM managed to squeeze uppper > and lower case (total: 52 chars), numbers (10 chars), APL symbols > (around 45 at least, not counting overstrikes) and other punctuation > into 127 characters! They definitely left out things like line > drawing characters and foreign language symbols (all of which are in > STSC's APL) if this is the case. I do not have access to definite information about the IBM APL's character generation methods. However, its character set is 256 characters, not 128. It looks like it generates the characters itself, rather than using the BIOS facilities, but maybe not. In any event, they managed to squeeze upper case, lower case, numbers, APL symbols, AND all the line drawing characters and foreign symbols into the character set. >> Some of us think that APL systems that are "loaded with system functions" >> are baroque. > Hmmm... if you want to be able to do things (graphics, screen > controls, files, DOS access, ...) you have to access them somehow. > You can always go to VM to use auxiliary processors, right? :-) Well, you can go to DOS to use auxiliary processors. IBM's APL comes with auxiliary processors to do screen management, file access, talk over the communications port, handle the line printer, make BIOS requests, and even play music. The documentation supplied with the system even tells you how to write your own auxiliary processors, without changing the language or the system. > Tom "Yes, people, there really are two 'A's there" Haapanen > {allegra,decvax,ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanen > Naturally, I'm in no way affiliated with STSC (which is probably a trademark) I'm not affiliated with IBM either, and, since I haven't used STSC's APL system, I cannot comparit with IBM's. I just wanted to set the record straight. Incidentally, I just saw a paper about the IBM APL implementation that says that it is portable! Apparently, it was written in some kind of machine-independent macro language, and so far has been ported to the IBM PC, the Series 1, and the 370. Thus if IBM comes out with some new follow-on machine to the PC, it will at least be possible to do an APL for it quickly. I think STSC will have a harder time on their hands (but of course I don't know for sure).
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (08/01/84)
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< ASBESTOS SUIT ON >
I was wrong!!! (what's new about that, you may ask... :-) )
What I thought was:
- in graphics mode, the PC is restricted to displaying 128
characters instead of 256. These may, however, be user-defined.
What is really the truth:
- Only 128 characters of the standard set are accessible. However,
128 user-defined characters may also be accessed.
Ooops...
< ASBESTOS SUIT OFF >
As I see it, though, the IBM approach still has a couple of drawbacks:
(1) Since you are in graphics mode (and assume 80 cols, right?) you
are restricted to plain white-on-black characters. No highlights
or fancy colours from your IBM RGB display.
(2) You *must* use the IBM colour/graphics adapter (personally I'll
take nice text & lack of flicker over graphics any day). You
can't use the monochrome adapter, or something like a Hercules
card. No such problem with STSC's APL.
(3) You can't access the screen memory directly (only a minor complaint)
> Well, you can go to DOS to use auxiliary processors. IBM's APL comes
> with auxiliary processors to do screen management, file access,
> talk over the communications port, handle the line printer,
> make BIOS requests, and even play music. The documentation
> supplied with the system even tells you how to write your own
> auxiliary processors, without changing the language or the system.
I can't see how auxiliary processors are less ``barocque'' than system
commands and variables. They are awkward (share the variable, assign,
unshare vs. just calling system function), and difficult to remember.
I've used a VS APL on VM/SP (shame on me!) extensively, and I think
using things like GDDM (a graphics/screen management system) through
auxiliary processors is a royal pain. The control codes are obscure
(quick! what does a 72 do when sent through to AP45?) and the whole
thing just seems artificial.
BTW, STSC's APL runs on many machines including 370 series, VAX, PC
and TRS-80, so it is at least somewhat portably written.
Maybe this discussion should be in net.lang.apl in any case...
Tom "Who said I that I actually *like* the PC???" Haapanen
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanenjeff@alberta.UUCP (C. J. Sampson) (08/11/84)
[This "feature" gets rid of all those annoying first lines...] >>> Tom Haapanen states that IBM APL for the PC will not display upper/lower >>> case characters at the same time as APL characters. This is false. >> If I was wrong, I stand corrected. However, consider the following: >> The IBM APL does not use a different character generator ROM. >> Instead, it uses the colour/graphics card's facility to redefine the >> character set in software, which only allows for the use of 128 >> characters at a time. I am amazed if IBM managed to squeeze uppper >> and lower case (total: 52 chars), numbers (10 chars), APL symbols >> (around 45 at least, not counting overstrikes) and other punctuation >> into 127 characters! They definitely left out things like line >> drawing characters and foreign language symbols (all of which are in >> STSC's APL) if this is the case. >I do not have access to definite information about the IBM APL's >character generation methods. However, its character set is 256 >characters, not 128. It looks like it generates the characters >itself, rather than using the BIOS facilities, but maybe not. >In any event, they managed to squeeze upper case, lower case, >numbers, APL symbols, AND all the line drawing characters and >foreign symbols into the character set. I doubt that it would do all of its character generation itself. If you look at the ROM BIOS listing in the back of the technical refrence manual, you will see that they have the first 128 characters (control chars, letters, numbers, etc.) defined in ROM, and the other 128 have to be defined in RAM somewhere. It is very easy to fit the entire APL character set and the line drawing set in 128 characters, and you have the other 128 predefined as your letters and numbers. Take a look at the Waterloo APL chip's character set for an example of this. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Sampson Snail Canada: #712 11135-83rd ave. ***DISCLAIMER*** ihnp4!alberta!jeff Edmonton, Alberta +--------------+ ubc-vision!alberta!jeff CANADA T6G 2C8 | These may | sask!alberta!jeff | be opinions. | +--------------+ "He who spends the storm beneath a tree, takes life with a grain of TNT."
seaburg@uiucdcs.UUCP (08/18/84)
#R:sri-arpa:-26900:uiucdcs:24700054:000:50 uiucdcs!seaburg Aug 17 18:01:00 1984 Oops, wrong note. Sorry. Please disregard this.