bll@mhuxt.UUCP (Barbara Levin) (05/16/86)
We have an old IBM PC/XT we are trying to upgrade from a 10MB to a 20MB hard disk. The old drive and controller were replaced with a SEAGATE 20MB disk and WESTERN digital controller. DOS 2.1 will not "see" the new hard disk, but IBM DIAGNOSTICS DO "SEE" IT AND IT TESTS OUT OK! We need HELP! Barbara Levin AT&T Bell Laboratories Short Hills, N. J. x4438, mhuxt!bll
billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) (05/19/86)
In article <846@mhuxt.UUCP> bll@mhuxt.UUCP (Barbara Levin) writes: >We have an old IBM PC/XT we are trying to upgrade from a 10MB to a >20MB hard disk. The old drive and controller were replaced with a >SEAGATE 20MB disk and WESTERN digital controller. > >DOS 2.1 will not "see" the new hard disk, but IBM DIAGNOSTICS DO >"SEE" IT AND IT TESTS OUT OK! > >We need HELP! There is a high probability that the disk came preformatted for DOS 3.xx, in which case DOS 2.xx will not be able to "see" it. To get 2.xx to acknowledge the hard disk, use the FDISK command to remove the current DOS partition and define a new one (that takes up the whole disk). The reason 2.xx cannot see it is because 3.xx uses a larger File Allocation Table format to break the disk up into smaller file allocation clusters and you need to use FDISK (followed by FORMAT) to go back to the smaller FAT. I'd recommend, though, that you go ahead and get DOS 3.xx and use it instead, mostly because it will use the smaller allocation chunks and thus utilize the disk more efficiently. In fact, I'm not sure DOS 2.xx can handle the whole 20MB at once. You *may* have to tell FDISK to create 2 (two) partitions of 10MB each (drives C: and D:). -- ========================================================================= Regards, Bill Weinberger FileNet Corporation ...! {decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!billw
brown@nicmad.UUCP (05/20/86)
In article <846@mhuxt.UUCP> bll@mhuxt.UUCP (Barbara Levin) writes: >We have an old IBM PC/XT we are trying to upgrade from a 10MB to a >20MB hard disk. The old drive and controller were replaced with a >SEAGATE 20MB disk and WESTERN digital controller. > >DOS 2.1 will not "see" the new hard disk, but IBM DIAGNOSTICS DO >"SEE" IT AND IT TESTS OUT OK! > >We need HELP! Help is in the form of PC-DOS 3.1. If my memory serves me correctly, PC-DOS 2.1 will only 'see' 10 MB hard disks. -- ihnp4------\ harvard-\ \ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown topaz-/ / decvax------/
nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) (05/20/86)
In article <692@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: > Help is in the form of PC-DOS 3.1. If my memory serves me correctly, > PC-DOS 2.1 will only 'see' 10 MB hard disks. Not so. We run 20 MB disks under DOS 2.1 with no problems, other than those caused by the 12-bit FAT pointer which limits the minimum size of a file to 8K bytes. In this regard (and a few others) DOS 3.1 is better: a minimum file size of 2K is standard. The DOS version is not your problem, however. I really don't know what is. I've never seen the symptom. -- Ed Nather Astronomy Dept, U of Texas @ Austin {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather nather@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
brown@nicmad.UUCP (05/21/86)
In article <692@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <846@mhuxt.UUCP> bll@mhuxt.UUCP (Barbara Levin) writes: >>We have an old IBM PC/XT we are trying to upgrade from a 10MB to a >>20MB hard disk. The old drive and controller were replaced with a >>SEAGATE 20MB disk and WESTERN digital controller. >> >>DOS 2.1 will not "see" the new hard disk, but IBM DIAGNOSTICS DO >>"SEE" IT AND IT TESTS OUT OK! >> >>We need HELP! > >Help is in the form of PC-DOS 3.1. If my memory serves me correctly, >PC-DOS 2.1 will only 'see' 10 MB hard disks. Something else came to mind. Is it possible that the jumpers, or switches, are NOT set to the correct position. If you tell the controller that you have a 10MB drive attached, even if it is 20MB, you will only get 10MB. -- ihnp4------\ harvard-\ \ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown topaz-/ / decvax------/
brown@nicmad.UUCP (05/23/86)
In article <4948@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >In article <692@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: >> Help is in the form of PC-DOS 3.1. If my memory serves me correctly, >> PC-DOS 2.1 will only 'see' 10 MB hard disks. > >Not so. We run 20 MB disks under DOS 2.1 with no problems, other than >those caused by the 12-bit FAT pointer which limits the minimum size of a >file to 8K bytes. In this regard (and a few others) DOS 3.1 is better: >a minimum file size of 2K is standard. The DOS version is not your >problem, however. I really don't know what is. I've never seen the >symptom. I have to disagree. I quote the following from the PC-DOS 3.10 Tech Ref Man: The FAT consists of a 12-bit entry (1.5 bytes) for each cluster on the disk or a 16-bit entry (2 bytes) when a fixed disk has more than 20740 sectors as in the case for fixed disks larger than 10M bytes. Also: 16-bit FATs are for use with DOS versions 3.00 and 3.10. The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. As another reference see the article "Finding Disk Parameters" in the May 1986 issue of PC TECH JOURNAL. So, in conclusion, the original poster still needs PC-DOS 3.10 or 3.20. -- ihnp4------\ harvard-\ \ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown topaz-/ / decvax------/
nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) (05/24/86)
In article <704@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: > The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: > 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or > 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS > As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. Sorry, but the computer I'm using to answer this note has a 20MB Seagate disk with a single PC-DOS partition 20 MB in size. It was formatted by and is running PC-DOS 2.1. I'm glad I didn't know better, or I might never have tried to use it this way. I did no butchery of any kind on the drive. The only ugly side effect is that the minimum file size is 8 KB instead of the 4 KB on a 10 MB disk. Has anyone else done it this way? -- Ed Nather Astronomy Dept, U of Texas @ Austin {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather nather@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
brown@nicmad.UUCP (05/25/86)
In article <4992@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >In article <704@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: >> The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: >> 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or >> 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS >> As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. > >Sorry, but the computer I'm using to answer this note has a 20MB Seagate >disk with a single PC-DOS partition 20 MB in size. It was formatted by and >is running PC-DOS 2.1. I'm glad I didn't know better, or I might never >have tried to use it this way. I did no butchery of any kind on the drive. >The only ugly side effect is that the minimum file size is 8 KB instead of >the 4 KB on a 10 MB disk. Great! In that same afore mentioned posting, I also included references to the PC-DOS 3.10 Tech. Ref. Manual. You know, it didn't come right out and say that 2.10 wouldn't work with 20MB drives, just that 12-bit FAT table entries are used with 2.10. It just says that 16-bit FATs are used for 20MB and up, with PC-DOS 3.00 and up. The PC TECH JOURNAL also did not come right out and give the combinations of DOS and hard disk size. But, the netter brings up a little point. With 20MB hard disks and up, one should probably use PC-DOS 3.10 (or up). Why, because you then stay away from the space hogging 8K clusters. You get 2K clusters with 3.10. Depending on file size, one could get up to 4 times the space back. Even 25-50% would be great. So, all of this proves two things: 1. IBM Tech Reference Manuals don't always tell you things. One must read between the lines all the time. 2. The original poster with the DOS 2.10 problem has a problem. I did say in another posting that maybe the jumpers may be set wrong on the controller. Other than the controller being bad, that seems to be the only thing left, as DOS has been ruled out. [I love it when I make mistakes. It sure brings out the rest of you, which in the end may get the original poster the answer that is needed] -- ihnp4------\ harvard-\ \ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown topaz-/ / decvax------/
nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) (05/25/86)
In article <707@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: > [I love it when I make mistakes. It sure brings out the rest of you, > which in the end may get the original poster the answer that is needed] > Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown In looking over my collection of "How to use MS-DOS despite the manuals" I find that a majority of the stuff I found it useful to save -- how to get "echo off" to shut up, how to dingle the cluster size on 10MB disks under DOS 3.x and many, many more, were contributed to the net by "Mr. Video." This is just a public note to say "thanks." -- Ed Nather Astronomy Dept, U of Texas @ Austin {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather nather@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
jons@islenet.UUCP (Jonathan Spangler) (05/26/86)
In article <704@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: > 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or > 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS >As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. > >As another reference see the article "Finding Disk Parameters" in the >May 1986 issue of PC TECH JOURNAL. > >So, in conclusion, the original poster still needs PC-DOS 3.10 or 3.20. >-- > > ihnp4------\ > harvard-\ \ >Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown > topaz-/ / > decvax------/ You are right in saying that PC-DOS 2.10 will NOT support a 20MB hard disk directly. It is because the format command will only support a 10MB hard disk. Everex Systems (who sell mostly Seagate drives), include a software patch for the format routine in PC-DOS 2.1, which is called LFORMAT. This patch allows you to set up a 20MB hard drive for PC-DOS 2.1 We have been putting 20MB hard disks on PC-DOS 2.1 for quite some time. Personally though, I still agree with you -- PC-DOS 3.10 is the way to go if you are pursuing larger mass storage. Aloha, -- Jonathan Spangler {ihnp4,vortex,dual}!islenet!jons "On Thursday, the world came to an end."
brown@nicmad.UUCP (05/27/86)
In article <4999@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >In looking over my collection of "How to use MS-DOS despite the manuals" I >find that a majority of the stuff I found it useful to save -- how to get >"echo off" to shut up, how to dingle the cluster size on 10MB disks under >DOS 3.x and many, many more, were contributed to the net by "Mr. Video." > >This is just a public note to say "thanks." You're welcome. I try and provide accurate information, but sometimes I slip badly. I'll keep trying to provide good stuff. -- ihnp4------\ harvard-\ \ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown topaz-/ / decvax------/
bruce@cher.UUCP (05/30/86)
In article <4992@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >In article <704@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: >> The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: >> 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or >> 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS >> As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. > Ed Nather describes his counter-example as follows: (1) single PC-DOS partition 20 MB in size. (2) formatted by and running PC-DOS 2.1. (3) no butchery of any kind on the drive. >The only ugly side effect is that the minimum file size is 8 KB instead of >the 4 KB on a 10 MB disk. and asks, "Has anyone else done it this way?" Yep. Works fine. I use MS-DOS 2.11, Microscience 20 MB harddisk. No problems. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=> + + Bruce Stewart @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA + We stand behind everything we sell ... except our manure spreaders .. + {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!cher!bruce + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=> -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=> + + Bruce Stewart @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA + We stand behind everything we sell ... except our manure spreaders .. + {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!cher!bruce + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=>
brian@prism.UUCP (06/04/86)
TO : mhuxt!bll
Subject: If you still need help...
If you are still having a problem getting the 20mb drive going, you can do
the following:
get into debug
type g=c800:0005 (this starts the western digital hard format routine)
select disk drive 0
select interleave factor of 6 (to be ibm compatible)
Format the disk.
DON'T virtual format the disk.
DON't mark bad areas.
get out of debug (q)
use the FDISK program to partition the disk into a DOS volume
use the format/s c: command to put DOS on the disk.
you should now have a bootable 20mb hard disk.
brian moran
----
brian {mit-eddie, ihnp4!inmet, wjh12, cca, datacube}!mirror!brian
Mirror Systems 2067 Massachusetts Avenue Cambridge, MA, 02140
Telephone: 617-661-0777 ext. 141jso@edison.UUCP (John Owens) (06/04/86)
> In article <4948@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: > >Not so. We run 20 MB disks under DOS 2.1 with no problems, other than > >those caused by the 12-bit FAT pointer which limits the minimum size of a > >file to 8K bytes. > > I have to disagree. I quote the following from the PC-DOS 3.10 Tech Ref Man: > > The FAT consists of a 12-bit entry (1.5 bytes) for each > cluster on the disk or a 16-bit entry (2 bytes) when a > fixed disk has more than 20740 sectors as in the case > for fixed disks larger than 10M bytes. > > Also: > > 16-bit FATs are for use with DOS versions 3.00 and 3.10. > > The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: > 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or > 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS > As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. > > So, in conclusion, the original poster still needs PC-DOS 3.10 or 3.20. > > Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown Sorry, he can still run 2.1. I know; I've done it. (I've also written a driver to allow using two partitions, but anyway....) What you've demonstrated with your quotes is exactly what he was saying originally; with DOS 3.0 or greater, he can use 16 bit FATs, allowing him a much smaller minimum file size, and therefore more efficient allocation. With DOS 2.1, he can only have a 12-bit FAT, therefore he can only have up to 4096-10=4086 clusters, therefore, with a 20MB disk, his cluster size is 16 sectors, or 8K. (The cluster size must be a power of 2.) You still get 20MB of disk space, but it's not allocated very well, and you'll end up using most of your space for what would take less under 3.10 (unless you consistently have *very* large files.) John Owens @ General Electric Company (+1 804 978 5726) edison!jso%virginia@CSNet-Relay.ARPA [old arpa] edison!jso@virginia.EDU [w/ nameservers] jso@edison.UUCP [w/ uucp domains] {cbosgd allegra ncsu xanth}!uvacs!edison!jso [roll your own]
rlw@briar.UUCP (Richard Wexelblat) (06/06/86)
In article <707@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <4992@ut-sally.UUCP> nather@ut-sally.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >>In article <704@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP writes: >>> The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: >>> 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or >>> 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS >>> As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. (Sorry if this repeats other postings but I'm a bit behind in reading and we don't have NOTES) I have been using a 21M hard disk with 2.10 for a long time with no trouble. The 2.1 FDISK has no problems nor do FORMAT, BACKUP, CHKDSK, etc. --Dick Wexelblat {decvax|seismo|ihnp4}!philabs!rlw
greggt@ncoast.UUCP (Gregg Thompson) (06/25/86)
> In article <704@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: > >The only way you can have PC-DOS 2.10 run 20MB hard drives is if: > > 1. You run partitioned drives with two 10MB partitions or > > 2. You butchered the drive to fool DOS > >As PC-DOS 2.10 stands, it is not able to format 20MB hard drives as 20MB. > > > >As another reference see the article "Finding Disk Parameters" in the > >May 1986 issue of PC TECH JOURNAL. > > > >So, in conclusion, the original poster still needs PC-DOS 3.10 or 3.20. PC-Dos 2.10 WILL format a 20 meg hard drive! It may not `support' it in the sense if something is wrong with the hard drive after 15 megs I think. I have used PC-DOS 2.1 to format a 20 hard drive from Qubie' and then I have moved MS-Dos over to the hard drive. This is because Tandy at first was not selling there Hard Disk utilities when the Tandy 1000 just came out. If you bought a hard disk from Tandy then you got the formatting programs, if you purchased elsewhere forget it (now they have changed). Using this technique of putting Tandy's Ms-Dos onto the 20 meg drive I have disproved several Tandy people because I am using the Original rom Bios that the older versions of the Tandy 1000s were using, they said it couldn't be done without THEIR drives.