burton@inuxe.UUCP (09/16/83)
(b) It was possible for humans to repair the warp drive. Who? (i) Scotty. Couldn't -- he passed out (why, I wonder?) (ii) Trainees. Might not have the appropriate training or experience. (Then again, what experience did Spock have?) (iii) Scotty's immediate subordinates, who were experienced. Scotty's second-in-command (or whoever was most experienced in warp drive repairs) should get Court-Martialed: Cowardice While In Combat, Endangering Fellow Servicebeings! (or whatever it should be called) -- which is one of the worst military crimes * possible (My Lai-types excluded). What -- there weren't any * experienced officers other than Scotty aboard? A ship leaving * for a longish voyage -- no matter how safe -- with only *one* * person capable to carry out repairs? What if he had fallen * down the latter and broken his neck? The ol' Enterprise would really be up Shit's Nebula without a paddle then, eh? Whoever was responsible for personnel selections should draw a stiff reprimand: a ship *cannot* afford such screwups! I believe that the Enterprise was on a training mission when they were called away to the Rigel space lab; something about being the only ship in the quadrant. Thus, only a bare-bones experienced crew was on board; everyone else were trainees. Remember what Scotty said about his nephew when he died? "He stayed at his post, even when the other trainees ran." So, it is possible that the only experienced officers on board were Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu, and Scotty. Doug Burton inuxe!burton ATTCP - IN
rjnoe@ihlts.UUCP (09/16/83)
I totally disagree that "Someone should get reprimanded or booted from Starfleet" because of the events at the end of Star Trek II. Sure, it's the responsibility of Engineering to keep the ship's engines in operating condition, if possible. But no one is expected to commit suicide, not even to save a starship and all others aboard. This is extraordinary valor, which can never be expected of all people, if anyone at all. Certainly Spock was the only one who could have done it. McCoy warned Spock that humans cannot survive in the chamber. Spock, of course, reminded McCoy that he is not human. No, I don't believe any other ship ever before would have needed ultra-emergency (i.e. in minutes) repair in that part of the main reactor. That would imply severe damage to the ship (e.g. from phaser fire, like Enterprise's damages) from which starships would not ordinarily survive. You can't create a robot for every contingency since some are so improbable that they are not worthy of consideration. No one in Engineering goofed. I also don't think one can accuse McCoy and Scott of cowardice because they tried to keep Spock from dying. In the first place, I doubt that they knew the ship's tactical situation, not being bridge personnel. (By the way, Scott passed out earlier because of radiation exposure.) If it's hard to believe that they were in a military organization, it's because they weren't. Starfleet is not really a military organization. The Klingons are military. [Perhaps Star Trek IV will be about the Klingons firing photon torpedoes at civilian passenger space ships passing through the neutral zone which the Klingons themselves repeatedly violate intentionally.] >-| Kirk has stated MANY times (and we've seen adequate evidence of this) that Starfleet has peaceful intentions (military == war == !peace) and that their weapons are used for defensive purposes. The majority of times ship's weapons are used is to protect the Enterprise against NATURAL hazards (as opposed to living ones, sentient or not). I hereby grant a full and unconditional pardon for Mr. McDaniel for any and all flaming he may have committed in his previous article (as per your request). -- Roger Noe ...ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe
crl@CSvax:Pucc-H:pur-phy.UUCP (09/16/83)
In the novelization, I seem to remember that Scotty says that none of the robots were able to work in the chamber. Charles LaBrec UUCP: pur-ee!Physics:crl, purdue!Physics:crl INTERNET: crl @ pur-phy.UUCP
mcdaniel@uiucdcs.UUCP (09/18/83)
#R:uiucdcs:24900010:uiucdcs:24900011:000:5235
uiucdcs!mcdaniel Sep 17 14:19:00 1983
Various responses to responses . . .
/***** uiucdcs:net.startrek / pur-phy!crl / 2:25 pm Sep 16, 1983 */
In the novelization, I seem to remember that Scotty says that none
of the robots were able to work in the chamber.
Charles LaBrec
/* ---------- */
[Hmmmm . . . mayhap. The material lining the radiation chamber, though,
obviously contained a lot of the radiation (as evidenced by the fact
that the others in Engineering were still alive). I'd intuitively
imagine that a robot could use whatever material/force field/? that
the radiation chamber used. Can't argue with the book, though.
One point for you.]
/***** uiucdcs:net.startrek / inuxe!burton / 1:25 pm Sep 16, 1983 */
(b) It was possible for humans to repair the warp drive. Who?
* . . . What -- there weren't any
* experienced officers other than Scotty aboard? A ship leaving
* for a longish voyage -- no matter how safe -- with only *one*
* person capable to carry out repairs? What if he had fallen
* down the latter and broken his neck?
Whoever was responsible for personnel selections should draw
a stiff reprimand: a ship *cannot* afford such screwups!
I believe that the Enterprise was on a training mission when they were
called away to the Rigel space lab; something about being the only
ship in the quadrant. Thus, only a bare-bones experienced crew was on
board; everyone else were trainees. Remember what Scotty said about
his nephew when he died? "He stayed at his post, even when the other
trainees ran." So, it is possible that the only experienced officers
on board were Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu, and Scotty.
Doug Burton
/* ---------- */
[Perhaps, but . . . Suppose you get a group together to go sailing.
Nobody else in the boat has ever sailed before but you -- but that's
OK, because it's just a "training mission." But a storm comes up
and you are washed overboard . . . Starships should have backup
personnel for the same reason the space shuttle has 5 independent
computers: even if it's only a "training mission", problems can arise
with the primary system -- or engineer, on the Enterprise. I stick
by my comment.]
/***** uiucdcs:net.startrek / ihlts!rjnoe / 1:27 pm Sep 16, 1983 */
. . . But no one is expected to commit suicide, not
even to save a starship and all others aboard. This is extraordinary valor,
which can never be expected of all people, if anyone at all.
[I beg to differ. I remember a scene in Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky."
I'm paraphrasing here from memory. A smart-alec asks the chief
engineer "If the fusion drive is sealed off and automatic, why bother
having engineers around? You don't run it and you can't fix it."
The chief engineer answers, "To answer smart-assed questions like that."
However, the protagonist's father later remarks that there are certain
repairs that the chief engineer could make. "He would go aft to make
the repairs . . . and shortly thereafter his second-in-command would
succeed him. A chief engineer is chosen for many qualities, and
technical competence is only one of them." I disagree with Heinlein
on many things, but I tend to agree on this point.]
Certainly Spock was the only one who could have done it. McCoy warned Spock
that humans cannot survive in the chamber. Spock, of course, reminded McCoy
that he is not human. . . .
[Spock didn't survive either, did he? The key question is actually
"Could anyone else survive long enough to effect repairs?"]
I also don't think one can accuse McCoy and Scott of cowardice because they
tried to keep Spock from dying. In the first place, I doubt that they knew
the ship's tactical situation, not being bridge personnel. . . .
[Perhaps Kirk should have said "Fix it in 4 minutes or we're dead meat."
. . . But wasn't Kirk saying something urgent over the intercom when
Scotty passed out, like "Scotty, we *need* warp power"? Scotty, when
awake, could reasonably assume that speed wasn't needed because Kirk
had a hot date on Epsilon Indi III.]
. . . If it's hard to
believe that they were in a military organization, it's because they
weren't. Starfleet is not really a military organization. . . .
[Yeah, Marcus was flaming at the time. I'll grant you this point.]
. . . (Perhaps Star Trek IV will be about the Klingons firing photon
torpedos at civilian passenger space ships passing through the neutral
zone which the Klingons themselves repeatedly violate intentionally.) >-|
[The (false) Kobiashi Maru (sp?) was "hit" by a (virtual) "space mine" in
the (computer-simulated) Neutral Zone, so Starfleet would know how to
handle this scenario. [Please keep KAL007 off net.startrek!]]
Kirk has stated MANY times (and we've seen adequate evidence of this) that
Starfleet has peaceful intentions (military == war == !peace) and that their
weapons are used for defensive purposes. . . .
[Starfleet has "peaceful intentions" but it does not prevent them from
blowing away dirty no-good imperialistic Klingons. Military training
is necessary, I assert, to handle a ship for purposes of fighting.]
Roger Noe ...ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe
/* ---------- */rjnoe@ihlts.UUCP (09/19/83)
Some comments regarding comments regarding comments . . . The basic format
is a few lines from my initial reply to uiucdcs!mcdaniel's first article
followed by a line or two from his response and my new comments.
. . . But no one is expected to commit suicide, not
even to save a starship and all others aboard. This is extraordinary valor,
which can never be expected of all people, if anyone at all.
[I beg to differ. . .]
The operative word here is EXPECTED. One might indeed be chosen for a task
(e.g. chief engineer) because one is more likely to make the ultimate sacrifice
but that does not give those who picked you the moral right to EXPECT you to
do so.
Certainly Spock was the only one who could have done it. McCoy warned Spock
that humans cannot survive in the chamber. Spock, of course, reminded McCoy
that he is not human. . . .
[Spock didn't survive either, did he? The key question is actually
"Could anyone else survive long enough to effect repairs?"]
That is precisely the question which McCoy and I were addressing. As to
whether or not Spock did "survive" . . . I'm not divulging anything.
I also don't think one can accuse McCoy and Scott of cowardice because they
tried to keep Spock from dying. In the first place, I doubt that they knew
the ship's tactical situation, not being bridge personnel. . . .
[Perhaps Kirk should have said "Fix it in 4 minutes or we're dead meat."
. . . But wasn't Kirk saying something urgent over the intercom when
Scotty passed out, like "Scotty, we *need* warp power"? Scotty, when
awake, could reasonably assume that speed wasn't needed because Kirk
had a hot date on Epsilon Indi {sic} III.]
Kirk's words were really quite close to that. But Scott passed out *moments*
later (if he had not already) from radiation exposure. And how many times has
Kirk said to Scott to "do something impossible immediately or we've had it?"
How serious could Scott assume the situation was, in his state, without knowing
details of Khan's possession and activation of the Genesis device? After all,
the Reliant had already been defeated.
[Starfleet has "peaceful intentions" but it does not prevent them from
blowing away dirty no-good imperialistic Klingons. Military training
is necessary, I assert, to handle a ship for purposes of fighting.]
I cannot disagree with your last statement. But the Klingons are a poor
example. They were added to the Star Trek universe by a bad writer who needed
a villain and are not up to the quality of the rest of Star Trek. Once the
damage was done it was all too easy for writers in later TV episodes to pick up
on Klingons. I would just as soon see Klingons and Romulans disappear
entirely. They detract from the principles and ideals of Star Trek.
Roger Noe ...ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoepjm@pyuxll.UUCP (PJ Maioriello) (09/19/83)
I don't particularly care if anyone gets courtmartialed for cowardice or not. Spock is definetly a hero type for risking his neck. I don't beleive it is anyone's duty to commit what amounts to sheer suicide and thats what walking into the radiation chamber was. Did anyone walk into three mile island to put the mains back on line? Everybody said lets get the H out of here. Now that I got that off my chest, my real question is: If the shot Spock's coffine out of a PHOTON TORPEDO tube (and I think they did) how did it come to a nice 3 point soft landing and end up resting confortably nestled among the tropical growths of the genises planet. Dont tell me that federation coffins are required to come with warp drives!! Waiting to find Spock Live long and Prosper Paul Maioriello pyuxll!pjm
okie@ihuxs.UUCP (09/19/83)
I'd like to take issue with Roger Noe on a statement on a comment on a
comment on...you get the idea. Anyway, the statement:
"I would just as soon see Klingons and Romulans disappear
entirely. They detract from the principles and ideals of
Star Trek."
I disagree (in a friendly manner, mind you!) for the following reasons:
1. To quote Kirk in Marshak and Culbreath's "The Price of the
Phoenix," "It's a tough universe." True -- and realistically,
in such a tough universe, you're going to find cultures that are
radically opposed to what you feel is right and good and so on.
In other words, it ain't all good guys out there, pilgrim. And
if there are nasties out there (I mean, do you really believe
that they're all like Spielberg's aliens out there?), you have
to deal with them, period. Especially if they're a spacegoing
people. You can't run, you can't hide -- so you deal with them.
*That's* where the true test of your "principles and ideals"
comes in. If there's no one to play them off of, how do you
show them?
2. As far as the "principles and ideals" go, one of the underlying
themes of "Star Trek" is that of an imperfect humanity pulling
itself out to the stars, and learning how to deal with not only
what they find out there, but what they find *in themselves*.
Again, you need to have someone like the Klingons (I'll get to
Romulans in a moment) to bounce that theme off of. There are
things about the Klingons that no human will admit to -- but
they are still there. Again, you have to face both of those
sides, or you'll never learn anything.
3. Finally, classing the Klingons with the Romulans is unfair.
They are two completely different cultures with two completely
different aims. Also, they are shrouded in more mystery, as
shown by the fact that we only saw them in two episodes
("Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident"). I will
grant you that the Klingons are a lot easier to write about,
because they are less complex. If you want more insight on
the Romulans (I don't want to lecture!), I suggest you read
the two "Phoenix" books by Marshak and Culbreath and also
"The Web of the Romulans" (author's name escapes me)...
but bear in mind that they are an offshoot of the Vulcan race,
a warrior culture consisting of a people with tremendous
stamina, intelligence, and honor. They are not so much villains
as anti-heros (or something like that).
I personally think that the Klingons could have been thought out more;
they're almost "too nasty." But the Romulans had great potential -- too
bad it wasn't realized until after the series ended, and then in the fiction
published much later.
I'll get off my soapbox now (*sigh*)
B.K. (I'll argue about anything) Cobb
>:<mcdaniel@uiucdcs.UUCP (09/21/83)
#R:uiucdcs:24900010:uiucdcs:24900012:000:1158 uiucdcs!mcdaniel Sep 20 22:30:00 1983 Just one last point: Why didn't they just photon torpedo/phaser Reliant (and Genesis) into a rapidly expanding ball of vapor? I KNOW Kirk wanted their surrender, but once Genesis was started, the chances of getting prisoners was small, and the Enterprise's chances of survival were getting pretty darned slim, Jim. Also, they could have beamed it up and beamed it far away (probably not far enough, though; the max range was on the rough order of 5e4 kilometers), or dispersed its constituent particles throughout a large volume: ... ---> xporter -----> . \------> . \-------> . (wasn't this done in one episode?). Let me guess an objection: >The Genesis license agreement CLEARLY stated that >"any attempt to phaser, torpedo, beam up/down, fold, spindle, >or mutilate Genesis is a license violation, and the >device is programmed to detonate instantly if attempted."* I know, "pick, pick, pick . . . ." * "Genesis" is not a trademark of Bell Labs, but it probably will be, sooner or later. Tim McDaniel, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, CS dept. (UNIX mail: . . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel) (CSNET: mcdaniel.uiuc@RAND-RELAY)
dossamg@houxn.UUCP (A.GOPIN) (09/21/83)
Someone in this newsgroup has said that Kirk should have been court martialed for approaching the Reliant with shields down contrary to Star Fleet Regs in TWOK. Wouldn't it be interesting if STIII started with the Star Fleet inquiry into the Reliant Incident, proceeded with Kirk's court martial and conviction, and then continued with Kirk's obsessive search for Spock to clear his name? It would probably make as good a plot as any other they could come up with. Cat Who Sleeps With Dogs Commanding: 3rd Kzinti Field Force Flag Ship: SCS Hegemony P.S. The signiture refers to my title in the local Star Fleet Battles campaign.
rjnoe@ihlts.UUCP (Roger Noe) (09/22/83)
Undoubtedly Kirk will be submitted to court martial and asked to account for his actions. It is apparent he did blunder by not listening to Saavik, but it was Spock who shut her up. Kirk probably would not receive any serious punishment, since he and the fast-thinking Spock prevented the entire ship and all crew aboard from being destroyed. As it was, a number of engineering cadets were killed, but not the whole crew. And the Enterprise was saved. Since Khan was gunning for Kirk, the only blame we can rest on Kirk is for not raising shields at that first (and ONLY at that first) encounter. Remember also that Kirk is still something of a hero to Starfleet, the reason they made him an admiral in the first place. -- Roger Noe ...ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe
rjnoe@ihlts.UUCP (09/22/83)
They stated in the movie that destroying the Reliant would not destroy Genesis, rather it would trigger it. As far as transporting it somewhere, the range of the transporter in the TV series was only about 2.6e4 km, not nearly far enough. And in the series, the "widest possible angle of dispersion" was used on gaseous and liquid things, NOT solids. No, Genesis is not yet a trademark of Bell Laboratories, but UNIX is a trademark of AT&T Bell Laboratories -- Roger Noe ...ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (09/22/83)
Remember that Kirk left Khan and friends on the planet back in the Space Seed episode without (apparently) making note of this for permanent records. How does he explain THAT to starfleet?
andrew@tekecs.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) (09/26/83)
The person to phaser is Captain Kirk, who blatantly violated the
Starfleet regulation requiring that shields be up when approached by a
craft maintaining radio silence. By running the ship on intuition
rather than by the book, Kirk precipitated the death of much of his
crew, including Spock.
In a REAL military organization, he would be relieved of his duties and
subjected to court martial.
-- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew) [UUCP]
(andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA]