swc@cbscc.UUCP (Scott W. Collins) (02/01/85)
~ This was on here in Columbus (CH. 28)... Does anyone know why the "young" Spock was limping? After Pike, Spock, et al were beamed down to the surface (before checking out the vibrating plantlife), we see Spock limping around. Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's nature prevents him from lying) lied. Also, why couldn't Pike tell everyone what was going on? He could have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it), or even ASCII sequences. I really like this episode, but what do y'all think of these points? Too bad the editors at CH 28 cut out the scene where Pike talked to the Green Animal Woman in the cavern... swc "You say she was green and danced around like a harem girl?" "You say the back of their heads looked like gluteus maximus'?" "You say she was blond and beautiful but really just a lump of flesh?" "A PERFECT specimen..." -Vena and -Your Urologist
barmar@mit-eddie.UUCP (Barry Margolin) (02/04/85)
In article <4714@cbscc.UUCP> swc@cbscc.UUCP (Scott W. Collins) writes: >Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's >nature prevents him from lying) lied. Since when does Spock's nature prevent him from lying? He has lied in other episodes. In particular, he was lying in "The Enterprise Incident" when he told the female Romulan commander that Vulcans cannot lie, and he later lied in the same episode when he said that he had used the Vulcan death grip and killed Kirk. -- Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar
avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) (02/04/85)
> Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's > nature prevents him from lying) lied. Vulcans never bluff. Vulcans sometimes lie. ("Sir, there is a multi- legged creature crawling on your shoulder.") One assumes that Vulcans lie when it is the logical thing to do. > ... He could have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it), > or even ASCII sequences. I bet you remember the old Superman episode with the paralized old man in the wheel chair blinking out some message in morse code... -- Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio 301/731-4100 x4227
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (02/04/85)
> > Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's > nature prevents him from lying) lied. From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version of an original pilot episode called "The Cage." In the early days of "Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless he was. These things come with time...how often during the early episodes did Spock get involved in a fight and you sat there and yelled "Use the neck pinch!" It hadn't been invented yet, that's why. --- "Fermp?" Peter Merchant
nairb@ihlpg.UUCP (b. enke) (02/05/85)
> Does anyone know why the "young" Spock was limping? After Pike, > Spock, et al were beamed down to the surface (before checking out > the vibrating plantlife), we see Spock limping around. > > Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's > nature prevents him from lying) lied. > > Also, why couldn't Pike tell everyone what was going on? He could > have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it), or even > ASCII sequences. > > I really like this episode, but what do y'all think of these points? Spock limping: I don't think that the episode came right out and explained why he was limping, but if it didn't, maybe we can make up a good reason for it. We know that the Enterprise crew was involved in savage fighting prior to its arrival at the planet, several crewmen were dead, and we see why they died from what Pike relived. Maybe Spock was injured in the fight. Spock lying: I agree with the other reply in that Spock has lied in several episodes. I can't remember the name of the episode, but in one, Kirk came right out and questioned Spock about it. Spock answered that lying is not illogical, and therefore not against his nature. Pike blinking: Ah. Finally one that I have a good answer for. Blinking is usually a reflex, and it was not under voluntary control in Pike's case. Therefore, he could blink, but could not control his blinking enough to signal someone. Any more ideas, anyone?? Be humane: Adopt a TRIBBLE!!
cs2532aa@unm-cvax.UUCP (02/07/85)
[ Vulcan speak with forked tongue, Kemo Sabee] >> Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's >> nature prevents him from lying) lied. > > From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version > of an original pilot episode called "The Cage." In the early days of > "Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless > he was. These things come with time...how often during the early episodes > did Spock get involved in a fight and you sat there and yelled "Use the > neck pinch!" It hadn't been invented yet, that's why. > > "Fermp?" Peter Merchant Actually, Spock's lies in "The Menagerie" were part of the newly filmed story used to frame "The Cage". BTW: That whole idea about "Vulcans never lie" is utter bunk. Also, Vulcans are NOT "emotionless", they merely have a high degree of control over their minds and bodies and simply choose not to DISPLAY emotion in most situations. Spock is a special case...the pressures placed on him by his dual heritage cause him to overcompensate, thus, he acts "more Vulcan than a Vulcan". It is likely that the "lack of control" displayed by Spock in "The Cage" stems from his years in Starfleet, away from other Vulcans. Perhaps a later (between the original pilot and the time of the regular series) encounter, maybe an embarassing one with Sarek, resulted in the "eminently logical" Spock that is most familiar to the Star Trek fan community at large. There's a lot more to it than that. For a HUGE amount of background information on Vulcan society, read Jean Lorrah's excellent novel "The Vulcan Academy Murders" (Star Trek #20). I found it highly enjoyable for the same reason that I liked "The Final Reflection": lots and lots of new, believable, non-conflicting material for the Star Trek Canon. "I'm a doctor, not a can of industrial-strengh drain cleaner!" .rne. ----- Real World . . Ernie Longmire / 311 Don St. SE / Los Lunas, NM 87031-9405 UUCP . . . . . {{purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa ----- But first...Are You Experienced?
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (02/08/85)
In article <2733@dartvax.UUCP> merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) writes: > >From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version >of an original pilot episode called "The Cage." In the early days of >"Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless >he was. > Close, actually in the original pilot(The Cage) Spock was *not* at all emotionless, it was the female, human 2nd-in-command called Number One who was emotionless. Unfortunately this combo (a female exec/emotionless female) was too much for the network people and they insisted she be scratched. So Roddenberry transfered her personality to Mr Spock when he promoted him to executive officer. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen
ayers@convexs.UUCP (02/08/85)
***************** Spock lying: I agree with the other reply in that Spock has lied in several episodes. I can't remember the name of the episode, but in one, Kirk came right out and questioned Spock about it. Spock answered that lying is not illogical, and therefore not against his nature. **************** There was one episode (the first cloaking device? HELP ME MORTY!) where, when questioned about his ability to lie (But Your're Vulcan, and Vulcan's Can't Lie!) that he (or was it Kirk? HELP! CORE DUMP!) said, "but half human, and humans can..." blues, II (a mind is a wonderful thing to waste...)
elb@hou5e.UUCP (Ellen Bart) (02/20/85)
Since this has come up again, I'll post this to the net instead of sending mail, Spock is questioned about lying in the Enterprise Incident by the Romulan Commander. She asks him whether it is a myth that Vulcans cannot lie. Spock replies that it is no myth. Later when it is clear he *has* lied, she questions him again. Spock explained that ideally Vulcans don't lie, but that contact with other races has shown that blindly telling the truth could not work. He says such lies are what Earthmen call "white lies" and they are sometimes necessary to perserve the peace. ellen bart