cwayne@unm-cvax.UUCP (04/12/85)
>From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) >Subject: Re: Re: more stuff >Date: 8 Apr 85 08:56:06 GMT >Organization: Princeton University EECS Dept > >> Wasn't there a carrier in WWII named "Enterprise"? Was this decommissioned >> (scrapped) before the current nuclear version? > >Yes. I think the Enterprise was the only U.S. carrier in the Pacific Fleet to >survive all of WWII. Not quite. The sister to the "Lady Lex", USS Saratoga CV-3 survived the war only to be lost at Bikini. At least she went down like her sister. And don't forget the USS Ranger CV(L)-4, the first US carrier to be built from the keel up as a carrier. > >It's hard to say when a name will get used again. In the case of >famous ships who were lost "honorably" in battle, their names are often >used again immediately, perhaps in memory of the old ship. For >example, the Lexington was sunk in the Battle of Coral Sea and the >Yorktown at Midway, and ships with both names were back in commission >before the end of WWII. Then again, both the Yorktown and the >Lexington got sunk while beating off most of the Japanese Imperial >fleet (at very bad odds to boot). The ST Enterprise bit it taking on a >Klingon scout ship, so maybe the name won't get re-used for a while... Yes but, When the Essex class Lexington was commissioned, her captain was not the same captain that commanded the CV-2 Lexington! The same was true for the Yorktown, Hornet, and Wasp. Also remember that there was a war on! At the time of STIII-T(I)SFS, there is no on-going war! The reasons that the carriers were named after their sunken predecessors were for honnor, moral, and propaganda. For honnor to keep the name of a gallant ship alive and in hopes that the ship will do at least as good. To help keep the men's moral up and increase their confidence if the ship survives and does damage to the enemy. And finally, to scare the hell out of the enemy and demoralize them, making them think "I thought she was sunk". > >mean, we're talking about a 200,000+ -ton heavy cruiser which 10 years >ago was the pride of the Fleet and was completely upgraded less than 5 >years ago. New warp engines, new computer systems, new hull material, I think she was the pride of the fleet a few more years ago than that. If we use as year 1, the first time Spock and Pike were on the Enterprise, we can build the following time table. year event ---- ----- - Enterprise authorized, built and commissioned at San Fransico with April looking on. - commanded by April and then Winter (at least a total of seven years before Pike). 1 Spock serves under Pike on Enterprise for first time. 12 First season with Kirk in command. 13 "Space Seed" (earth year ~2296) 16 end of Kirk's first five year mission. 19 Kirk to Admiral, upgraded Enterprise, ST-TMP 28 STII-TWOK, STIII-T(I)SFS According to this then, she was the pride of the fleet over 12 years ago and upgraded 9 years ago. This also shows that she is at least 28 years old and more likely over 35. (allow +/- 1 year lee way) > >I could believe that they wouldn't want to spend the money to >repair her after the battle with the Reliant, IF AND ONLY IF >they were very sure of the technology being tested on the Excelsior >AND they had other Excelsior-class ships in the process of being >constructed. After all, one ship does not a fleet make. However, >in that case, the entire *fleet* is obsolete. Remember the old, now defunct pre-Excelsior class dreadnaughts? Three warp engines, had names like USS Star Empire and Koncordium? where are they now? Rob Mitchell said that the nuclear carrier Enterprise was not a CVA. But, I claim it was a CVA(N) before it was changed to CVN, mainly because all of the old WWII carriers are no longer on active service. "Are the Soviet warships now called Michale's Navy?" Chris Wayne @ UNM
chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) (04/19/85)
In article <335@unm-cvax.UUCP> cwayne@unm-cvax.UUCP (Chris Wayne) writes: >>Yes. I think the Enterprise was the only U.S. carrier in the Pacific Fleet to >>survive all of WWII. > > Not quite. The sister to the "Lady Lex", USS Saratoga CV-3 survived the > war only to be lost at Bikini. At least she went down like her sister. > And don't forget the USS Ranger CV(L)-4, the first US carrier to be built > from the keel up as a carrier. A quibble. Ranger was in the Atlantic Fleet. I'd forgotten if Saratoga had been sunk by the end of the war or not. I do know she spent a lot of her time in dry dock. That's why I said "I think...". >> >>The ST Enterprise bit it taking on a >>Klingon scout ship, so maybe the name won't get re-used for a while... > > Yes but, When the Essex class Lexington was commissioned, her captain > was not the same captain that commanded the CV-2 Lexington! The same > was true for the Yorktown, Hornet, and Wasp. Also remember that there > was a war on! Read more carefully please. I never said anything about who was going command the thing. > According to this then, she was the pride of the fleet over 12 years ago > and upgraded 9 years ago. This also shows that she is at least 28 years > old and more likely over 35. (allow +/- 1 year lee way) So, what? My point was that while old, she had been completely upgraded to new technology standards and was essentially a new ship. About the only thing that didn't change was the basic shape of the hull. Why then be ready to junk her only a few years later? > Remember the old, now defunct pre-Excelsior class dreadnaughts? > Three warp engines, had names like USS Star Empire and Koncordium? > where are they now? Two possibilities. Either they were or were not upgraded. Assume they weren't. If we assume that the basic design of the Federation class dreadnought hull (i.e. the shape) was sound, this would seem to imply that the Constitution-class cruiser refit proved to a disappointment somehow. However, the purpose of the Enterprise refit was to see if the refit was worth it. Therefore, it can be assumed that the Constitution class cruisers were refitted only if the Enterprise refit performed as expected. From this line of reasoning, I see three possible ST universes. One in which the Enterprise refit was a failure (not cost-effective). So it's cheaper to build new ships than to upgrade well-designed old-tech ships. In that case, I can see people being willing to junk the Enterprise. The second universe is one in which the refit was a success in which case they went ahead and refit the rest of the Constitution class ships and attempted to refit the Federation class dreadnoughts. In all probability, since the Constitution class refit was successful the Federation class refit will also be successful. In that case, why are people willing to junk the lead ship of the class (the Enterprise) only few years later? The third universe is one in which the Enterprise refit was successful, but technology advanced to the point where when the rest of the Consitution class ships were upgraded, they were essentially a different class ship than the Enterprise and the Enterprise fell victim to the "prototype" syndrome. Comments? Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr
boyajian@akov68.DEC (04/24/85)
> From: unm-cvax!cwayne (Chris Wayne) > Remember the old, now defunct pre-Excelsior class dreadnaughts? > Three warp engines, had names like USS Star Empire and Koncordium? > where are they now? Please! The dreadnaughts were a fabrication of Frank Joseph which he included in his STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL. That publication is *not* official canon, and Paramount is not obligated to use anything that Joseph made up for it, any more than they are obligated to use anything that appears in any of the novels. I suppose they *can* use them, but until Paramount includes them in a movie or something else official, they essentially don't exist. > "Are the Soviet warships now called Michale's Navy?" That's a nice joke (and it was used on the new THAT WAS THE WEEK IT WAS the other night), but it should be "Mikhail", not "Michale". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
wa68@sdcc12.UUCP (Alice Greene) (04/29/85)
I believe one of the Goodyear Airships is also named Enterprise.