m1b@rayssd.UUCP (04/03/85)
Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
topic. Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know
that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance,
why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things
seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.
Anyone else care to comment?
Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI 02871afb3@hou2d.UUCP (A.BALDWIN) (04/04/85)
How many centuries would it take the shuttle to get to the location of the ship in distress?? No warp drive on the shuttles (at least in Kirk's days at the Academy!!). Al Baldwin AT&T-Bell Labs ...!ihnp4!hou2d!afb3 [These opinions are my own....Who else would want them!!!]
adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) (04/04/85)
*** YOUR MESSAGE *** > Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started > to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking > the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know > that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance, > why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel > to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things > seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow. This assumes that you know that you've just entered a no-win situation. I interpreted it as a normal simulation that they've done many times, but this particular time, they threw in the K.M. twist. In other words, the point was not the strategy that she chose, but how she reacted to losing. That's exactly what Kirk told her later. Seems that if you invent alternate courses of action, you also have to figure out how she would have lost. -- Mark A. ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!adolph "When a fly lands on the ceiling, does it do a half roll or a half loop?"
john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) (04/05/85)
>From: m1b@rayssd.UUCP >Message-ID: <682@rayssd.UUCP> > > Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully) >topic. Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started >to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking >the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know >that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance, >why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel >to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things >seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow. How far inside the neutral zone is the Kobayashi Maru and what do you consider the capabilities of the standard Enterprise shuttlecraft? As I seem to recall, they were not blessed with the greatest range (the ones from "The Menagerie" and "Let This be Your Last Battlefield" may have had longer range, but both were from starbases.) Also, if you load them with crew and supplies, what do you do if you have to evacuate the ship in a hurry? (runaway matter/antimatter reaction, radiation, etc.) Lastly, suppose things aren't kosher (remember they weren't in the movie). You've just wasted several shuttles and valuable personnel. Now what? Do you go in anyway to rescue everyone? Leave them to die? Use the Guardian of Forever? No, this seems to be one of those do-or-die times when nothing less than a starship will do. -- Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john Silly Quote: "Ah, but what is a dream but reality without a backbone?"
gts@wjh12.UUCP (G. T. Samson) (04/05/85)
Some shuttles DID have warp drive, or could have it installed. This is mentioned in _Spock Must Die_ (SMD/n?) and a couple of the Star Trek Logs. And what's effective transporter range? A messier solution would be to send out a shuttle with warp drive and most of its seats torn out and replaced with a cargo transporter. Then they approach to minimum range, beam who they can out, and warp the hell out of there! There's also another possibility in a Star Trek Log; the Enterprise could try deploying a decoy Excelsior (or dreadnought or whatever). This should give the Klingons pause (if the simulation is good enough), and might give the Enterprise the time to warp away. (I think this is from "The Practical Joker".) And of course, there's my last offering. The "Wounded Sky" method. Maneuver like a madman, forcing the Klingons to hold fire so they don't hit each other (although it's no loss if they do). Get into transporter range for the KM at least briefly and beam what can be beamed out. Then run. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: G. T. Samson ARPA: gts@wjh12 [preferred] OR samson%h-sc4@harvard USMail: Lowell H-41, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138 Quote: "No matter where you go...there you are" -- B. Banzai Other_Quote: "You speak treason!" "Fluently!" --- The Doctor
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (04/06/85)
> > Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully) > topic. Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started > to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking > the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know > that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance, > why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel > to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things > seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow. > > Anyone else care to comment? > > > Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b > Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI 02871 Could be a problem because: a) Shuttles tend not be as fast as Starships. The Kobayashi Maru could have gone poof while the shuttle putty-chugged out. b) Shuttles look like they need some nice airy place to land. If this ship was that trashed, the shuttle wouldn't have been able to disgorge it's medical technicians. c) Operating in zero gravity, I would think, would be an incredible horrorshow. I also have my doubts as to how well the Medical Techs have been trained in zero-g operations. Bones might be able to pull it off ("I'm a doctor, not a feather!"), but I don't know about the rest of the crowd. Besides, from the look of Kobayashi Maru test, it was designed to fail. In fact, Saavik almost did it. They had to throw in another cruiser to keep her from pulling it off. -- "Damn!" -- Saavik Peter Merchant
hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (04/08/85)
GT: Amazing! I was about to suggest SMD but I was afraid that it would have been too trekkie-nerdie! How silly of me! (I remember someone saying something like "The shuttle just went into warp drive" and Kirk saying that none of the shuttles had warp drive (I was a LONG LONG time ago that I read the book, and I never really did understand it)) Here's an extension of the shuttle idea you suggested. Instead of just one shuttle, send 'em all out, each with a transporter. Just relay the people over like a bucket brigade. Whoops, how many shuttles did the enterprise have besides the Galileo and the Columbus? Furthermore, I used to have the Enterprise blueprints and they indicate that there are onlyt four transporter rooms on the enterprise. (Although there are emergency large-capacity transporters on deck 10 or 11.) Scotty might be hard-pressed for parts.
li63sdl@sdcc7.UUCP (DAVID SMITH) (04/08/85)
In article <2896@dartvax.UUCP> merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) writes: >c) Operating in zero gravity, I would think, would be an incredible > horrorshow. I also have my doubts as to how well the Medical Techs > have been trained in zero-g operations. Bones might be able to pull it > off ("I'm a doctor, not a feather!"), but I don't know about the rest of > the crowd. >-- >"Damn!" -- Saavik Peter Merchant Star Fleet medical techs would *HAVE* to be trained to cope with zero-g. They are (at least partially) a military force and a battle is always a worse case scenario. It's highly likely that the gravity generators or what nots (I've never seen a discussion of those anywhere) would be damaged during a battle. Therefore they'd *better* be trained to work in zero-g. David L. Smith sdcc7!li63sdl
m1b@rayssd.UUCP (04/09/85)
This is a response to my original posting. Keep in mind that I am not the originator. Mail to deneb:ccrdave rather than using 'r'. Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 19:05:38 pst From: allegra!gamma!sabre!decvax!ucbvax!ucdavis!deneb:ccrdave (Lord Kahless) Message-Id: <8504060305.AA00229@deneb.DAVIS> To: ucbvax!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!allegra!rayssd!m1b Subject: Re: Kobayashi Maru In-Reply-To: your article <682@rayssd.UUCP> We can't post anything yet, so could you post this for me? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully) > topic. Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started > to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking > the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know > that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance, > why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel > to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things > seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow. > > Anyone else care to comment? > > > Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b > Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI 02871 1) To enter the neutral zone was an act of war. The Enterprise had no business being there. The Kobiyashi Maru had no business being there. 2) Why didn't they sit on the border and use long range scanners to peek at what was going on? 3) Why did Kirk say Klingons never take prisoners? In Elaan of Troyius, the Klingon commander requested the surrender of the Enterprise? In Day of the Dove, Kirk and the landing party was captured by Kang's party. Lord Kahless, Founder of the Klingon Empire Now studying at U.C. Davis Computer Center, U.C. Davis, CA, 95617
john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) (04/11/85)
>From: hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) >Message-ID: <1660008@acf4.UUCP> > >GT: Amazing! I was about to suggest SMD but I was afraid that it would >have been too trekkie-nerdie! How silly of me! (I remember someone saying >something like "The shuttle just went into warp drive" and Kirk saying >that none of the shuttles had warp drive (I was a LONG LONG time ago that >I read the book, and I never really did understand it)) In SPOCK MUST DIE, the replicate Spock specially modifies a standard shuttle so as to allow it to have a warp dirve. As I recall, it was an odd procedure that did not use matter and antimatter. (I think it might have used interstellar hydrogen.) >Here's an extension of the shuttle idea you suggested. Instead of just >one shuttle, send 'em all out, each with a transporter. Just relay the >people over like a bucket brigade. > >Whoops, how many shuttles did the enterprise have besides the Galileo and >the Columbus? Even so, given the range and reliability of a transporter, would *you* want to have your atoms scattered that many times over that long a distance. Besides, just given the reliability of the transporter, one good shot from a baddie and one or more links in the chain would be broken. >Furthermore, I used to have the Enterprise blueprints and they indicate >that there are onlyt four transporter rooms on the enterprise. (Although >there are emergency large-capacity transporters on deck 10 or 11.) Scotty >might be hard-pressed for parts. According to the blueprints, there are four "standard" (as seen on TV) transporter rooms in the saucer section. There are three mass transporters (capacity something like 36) on the lower decks and two or three cargo transporters. (As I recall from SPOCK MESSAIH, you don't want to be beamed up in one of the latter.) -- Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john Silly Quote: "Ah, but what is a dream but reality without a backbone?"
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (04/11/85)
In article <247@moncol.UUCP> john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes: >>From: m1b@rayssd.UUCP >>Message-ID: <682@rayssd.UUCP> >> >> Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully) >>topic. Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started >>to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking >>the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio. (I know >>that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...) For instance, >>why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel >>to help the ship without endangering the entire crew. If things >>seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow. > >Also, if you load them with crew and supplies, what do you do if you have >to evacuate the ship in a hurry? (runaway matter/antimatter reaction, >radiation, etc.) > >Lastly, suppose things aren't kosher (remember they weren't in the movie). >You've just wasted several shuttles and valuable personnel. Now what? Do >you go in anyway to rescue everyone? Leave them to die? Use the Guardian of >Forever? > Not only that, but if you lose the shuttle craft, you have lost the most important part of your crew, *engineering* and *medical*, not to mention all the supplies. Then there is *still* the problem of rescuing the Kobayashi Maru, without technical support! -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen
chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) (04/12/85)
Why not try something like the corbamite trick that Kirk played on the romulans? The shuttle craft idea, I'm sorry to say, really isn't that good of an idea. As well as the range, and speed problems mentioned in other articles, I don't recall the shuttle crafts having a very good (if any) ability to protect themselves. -C. Paull "Aye, Sir"
guads@nmtvax.UUCP (04/18/85)
In article <> chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) writes: > > Why not try something like the corbamite trick that > Kirk played on the romulans? > > -C. Paull Arggghh! Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked like a baby. (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.) -- -Lautzy (Romulan) "Herbert, you are STIFF!"...
jmoore@fred.UUCP (Jim Moore) (04/23/85)
> Arggghh! Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he > played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked > like a baby. (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.) But didn't Kirk use this trick again against the Romulans? It was at the very end of the episode that had all the officers very old. Kirk was rejuvenated with andrinolin(?) and emerged on the bridge in time to escape a nasty neutral zone situation created by some paper-pusher from starfleet.
evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) (04/24/85)
Regarding the Corbomite bluff, it was done twice, once was against the
Romulans. In the deadly years, when the commodore had taken over the
helm, as Kirk and party were senile, he got the ship surrounded by
Romulans. Just in the nick of time, Kirk reappeared on the Bridge,
and, using Code 2, the Code the Romulans had broken, told them about
the Corbomite capability.
The other time it was done against the kid who played along side Gentle
Ben on the epic old show. (Now seen in reruns on CBN.)
--Evan Marcus
--
{ucbvax|decvax}|vax135|petsd|pedsgd|pedsga|evan
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide people into two
kinds, and those who don't.wws@whuxlm.UUCP (Stoll W William) (04/25/85)
> In article <> chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) writes: > > > > Why not try something like the corbamite trick that > > Kirk played on the romulans? > > > > -C. Paull > > Arggghh! Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he > played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked > like a baby. (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.) > > -- > > -Lautzy (Romulan) > > "Herbert, you are STIFF!"... You are half right. He did play it on the big blinking-light ship, (The Corbomite Maneuver) but then played it on the Romulans in "The Deadly Years". Bill Stoll, ..!whuxlm!wws
ph@wudma.UUCP (04/25/85)
>> >> Why not try something like the corbamite trick that >> Kirk played on the romulans? > > Arggghh! Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he > played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked > like a baby. (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.) Okay, Kirk first used the corbomite bluff on Balok, captain of the First Federation ship in The Corbomite Maneuver. *However*, he *also* used it in The Deadly Years to get some Romulans to back off far enough so that the Enterprise could make a break for it. --pH /* * "Pardon me for breathing, which I don't do anyway so I don't * know why I bother apologising for it, oh GOD I'm so depressed." */
duncan@bgsuvax.UUCP (Comer Duncan) (04/27/85)
This probably shouldn't have Kobyashi Maru as a subject , but this chain of messages started out with using the corbomite bluff in the K. Maru test. Somehow it got into "The Deadly Years" and the hormone was adrenaline. Yep, just plain and simple human produced adrenaline.
chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) (04/29/85)
My apologies. However the show where Kirk and others are affected by some mysterious disease. (I don't remember the title) They become old and Kirk loses his ability to command. I seem to remember that the romulans had broken code 2. When Bones finally finds the cure the enterprise is surrounded by Romulans. I do Believe Kirk sends starfleet a message, using code 2, saying that he is in a hopeless situation and he is going to self destruct using some new device which will destroy any thing within a particular range leaving that area of space unuseable for some odd number of years. When the Romulans back off they give Kirk enough room to warp away to safety. Once again I apologize if I'm wrong and this device is not the corbomite device. This however was the solution I was proposing. By the way, What was this self destructing mechanism.