ee173sai@sdcc3.UUCP (RODERICK HARTLEY) (05/08/85)
> I would think a better contest would emerge between the Enterprise and (dare > I say it?) the Death Star? Let's hear more on this... I hate to say it, but I think the Enterprise would lose this one. There are two major things the Enterprise would have to deal with: the Death Star's shield and the Death Star's energy beam. Since it is not possible for a large ship to penetrate the Death Star's shield, the Enterprise could never get off a shot. And I doubt if the Enterprise's shields could hold out against an energy beam that destroys planets. This doesn't even take into account any Imperial Destroyers that would be present in support of the Death Star. I think the only chance the Enterprise would have would be to beam somebody aboard the Death Star to knock out the Death Star's shield and then to use the cloaking device stolen from the Romulans to make numerous 'invisible' attacks that would gradually take out the Death Star piece by piece. (But would the cloaking device work against Imperial technology or would it hide the Enterprise from ....Darth Vador and the Force!?). I think a more even match would have the Enterprise taking on an Imperial Destroyer with its fleet of Tai Fighters. How about some input on this scenario... -Captain Rocket and the Spacebuds ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc3!ee173sai
freeman@spar.UUCP (Jay Freeman) (05/08/85)
/* libation to line-eater */ "Fascinating, Captain. It's some sort of tractor beam. They have drawn us inside their fighter squadrons, inside their defensive screens, and even inside their hull. These tactics are most interesting." (pause) "Did you say, ' ... inside their defensive screens ...'? "Precisely, Captain. "How far is it to the center of this thing? "Approximately 4.18952 kilometers." (pause) "Ahem. Mr. Sulu, warp factor 0.005. Forward phasers ... -- -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)
jak@talcott.UUCP (Joe Konstan) (05/09/85)
> > I would think a better contest would emerge between the Enterprise and (dare > > I say it?) the Death Star? Let's hear more on this... > > I hate to say it, but I think the Enterprise would lose this > one. There are two major things the Enterprise would have to > deal with: the Death Star's shield and the Death Star's energy > beam. Since it is not possible for a large ship to penetrate > the Death Star's shield, the Enterprise could never get off a > shot. > > -Captain Rocket and the Spacebuds > ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc3!ee173sai How about taking a few minutes to equip a few shuttlecraft with phasers or other weapons, maybe even a cloaking device, and sending them in a la Star Wars (I seem to recall it being effective before :-)) Mithrandir jak@talcott
aol2901@acf4.UUCP (adam l) (05/10/85)
If you could beam someone into the Death Star, why not beam some
anti-matter and blow it up. For that matter, there must be some
type of anti-matter warhead that could do greater damage than
the usual weapons.
adamedward@ukma.UUCP (Edward C. Bennett) (05/11/85)
In article <2824@sdcc3.UUCP>, ee173sai@sdcc3.UUCP (RODERICK HARTLEY) writes: > > I would think a better contest would emerge between the Enterprise and (dare > > I say it?) the Death Star? Let's hear more on this... > > one. There are two major things the Enterprise would have to > deal with: the Death Star's shield and the Death Star's energy > > -Captain Rocket and the Spacebuds > ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc3!ee173sai What shield?? The Death Star had no shields! resident trekker, -- edward {ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,research}!anlams! -| {mcvax!qtlon,vax135,mddc}!qusavx! -|--> ukma!edward | {decvax,ihnp4,mhuxt,seismo}! -+-> cbosgd! -| {clyde,osu-eddie,ulysses}! ---| "Well, what's on the television then?" "Looks like a penguin." () | |-- Support barrier free design /|--- | \ _ \___/ \=
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (05/14/85)
> /* libation to line-eater */ > > "Fascinating, Captain. It's some sort of tractor beam. > They have drawn us inside their fighter squadrons, inside > their defensive screens, and even inside their hull. > These tactics are most interesting." > > (pause) > > "Did you say, ' ... inside their defensive screens ...'? > "Precisely, Captain. > "How far is it to the center of this thing? > "Approximately 4.18952 kilometers." > > (pause) > > "Ahem. Mr. Sulu, warp factor 0.005. Forward phasers ... > -- > -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) Is this a for or against? I'm not too sure how the Enterprise would fare against the Death Star. It's one large mother and, allegedly, armed to the teeth. It also has screens for repelling attack from any large ship (that's how the X-Wings got in...they're small. Remember, though, even they encountered turbulance coming through.) Would they repell the Enterprise? Also, remember they do have some moderately big guns for defense against large ships. These were not effective against the little fighters, so they sent out TIE fighters to "destroy them ship by ship." (or something like that.) Of course, how big is the Enterprise, compared with the big ships of the Empire? Is it bigger than the Millenium Falcon? That's my only grumble about Star Wars (It became a little clearer in the subsequent movies): The lack of scale. Any opinions, gang? -- "So I call to your heart..." Peter Merchant
hsu@cvl.UUCP (Dave Hsu) (05/15/85)
> > /* libation to line-eater */ > > > > "Fascinating, Captain. It's some sort of tractor beam. > > They have drawn us inside their fighter squadrons, inside > > their defensive screens, and even inside their hull. > > These tactics are most interesting." > > -- > > -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) > > I'm not too sure how the Enterprise would fare against the Death Star. > It's one large mother and, allegedly, armed to the teeth. It also > has screens for repelling attack from any large ship (that's how the > X-Wings got in...they're small. Remember, though, even they encountered > turbulance coming through.) Would they repell the Enterprise? > > Also, remember they do have some moderately big guns for defense against > large ships. These were not effective against the little fighters, so > they sent out TIE fighters to "destroy them ship by ship." (or something > like that.) > > Of course, how big is the Enterprise, compared with the big ships of the > Empire? Is it bigger than the Millenium Falcon? That's my only grumble > about Star Wars (It became a little clearer in the subsequent movies): > -- > "So I call to your heart..." Peter Merchant Okay...to address them in reverse order, you have my input now: The Enterprise is slightly larger than a rebel cruiser such as the one seen at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. By comparison, the millenium falcon would just fit in the shuttlebay, while a ordinary star destroyer is perhaps twice the size. A rebel capital ship such as Mon Mothma's command vessel is substantially larger, as is the Super Star Destroyer. And we all know that the super star destroyer, when it plunged into the surface of the new death star, looked much like a toothpick plunging into the surface of an orange. Both Death Stars were HUGE. As for shielding, the obvious advantage goes to the Death Star. Note that the Enterprise's shielding could only survive a few phaser/disruptor blasts, and while the nav. deflectors could move small rocks and debris from its path, it could not survive a direct hit from, say, a good sized meteorite. The old Death Star was shielded against all but the smallest ships. A shuttlecraft could penetrate and remain undetected for some time, but larger ships were unable to. It is apparent that Imperial shielding technology had advanced substantially by the time of the Death Star 2; the small bunker unit with the not-too-unreasonable-big dish had enough power not only to cover the entire Death Star, but it could also prevent small ships from penetrating. Its effectiveness was proven when the lead two x-wings were demolished after ramming it (they were unable to pull up in time. If you don't remember seeing this, read the book.) Against such shielding, a shuttlecraft would be useless. In addition, the Death Stars when fully operational were shielded against energy beams except where they would interfere with a critical operation. Examples include energy weapons and control towers, where shielding would be self-defeating. Observe that the rebel commander noted the uselessness of lasers against the port. Although the phaser is a more advanced unit in that it also packs the punch of particle-beam weapons (re: the horrid Spaceflight Chronology) the Death Stars were also particle shielded, except for that vent. Whether or not phasers would be effective against this combination is relatively inconsequential; their fire rate would require substantial time to knock out all the Death Star's emplacements. To counter those who argue about the Death Stars apparent lack of armament, I offer the Ion Cannon. This relatively small device was used in TESB with enough force to deflect and seriously damage a Star Destroyer. Although the Enterprise is substantially shielded for a ship its size, a direct hit by such a unit would be crippling. Clearly the Enterprise would need to do some serious dodging. And now...for the obvious incompatibilities which would turn the above tables: 1) Supra-light travel. The tracking technology does not exist in Star Wars. Observe that no accurate tracking can be done at these speeds, but navigation is possible with careful calculation BEFOREHAND. So although the Empire has enough firepower to blast the Enterprise out of existence, it is possible she has enough speed to run circles around them. Of course, flying around the Death Star takes some time, and the Enterprise could not effectively aim either at a stationary object while at warp-speed. In fact, phaser operation is not possible at warp-speed on the new Enterprise because the cooling units have been ducted through the warp drive. The phasers cause much more drain than any other weapon, and are the Enterprise's main weaponry in ALL situations. Translation: Enterprise runs away successfully, but can only conduct hit-and-run combat. Cloaking may help some, but wiping out the Death Star would take A LOT of time. And a lot of fuel. 2) Enterprises firepower. I think it is clear that when they say the Enterprise can devastate a planet, they mean that it can obliterate life from the surface, and cause substantial damage. Unless she overloads the engines and kamikazes, she cannot 'explode' a planet. The effectiveness of her weapons are in doubt against the Death Star. 3) Firing intervals. The Enterprise has a rather limited fire rate when compared to the Death Star's surface armament. However, the Enterprise would be relatively immune to ordinary TIE fire. Reason: Star Wars weaponry is predominantly laser, with some 'bolts' in between. The Federation developed the phaser because of the relative ineffectiveness of the laser against 'modern' shielding. In return, however, the phaser has substantial cooling requirements. Thus, the necessity of the ion cannon. Without it, we have a standoff, more or less, between a huge impenetrable hulk, and a small, impenetrable flea. Of course, ramming the Enterprise would cure that. Enough...I have typed too much. Verdict: slight edge to Death Star. All other scenarios depicted lead to near standoff. Peruse and reply. -dave David Hsu Computer Vision Laboratory, University of Maryland hsu@cvl.arpa College Park, MD 20742
erosenth@aecom.UUCP (Elazar Rosenthal) (05/15/85)
> > What shield?? The Death Star had no shields! > > resident trekker, > why do you think they had to use torpedos and not lasers?
ccs020@ucdavis.UUCP (ccs020 -- Kevin Chu) (05/16/85)
> 1) Supra-light travel. The tracking technology does not exist in Star > Wars. Observe that no accurate tracking can be done at these speeds, > but navigation is possible with careful calculation BEFOREHAND. So > although the Empire has enough firepower to blast the Enterprise out > of existence, it is possible she has enough speed to run circles around > them. Of course, flying around the Death Star takes some time, and > the Enterprise could not effectively aim either at a stationary object > while at warp-speed. In fact, phaser operation is not possible at > warp-speed on the new Enterprise because the cooling units have been > ducted through the warp drive. The phasers cause much more drain > than any other weapon, and are the Enterprise's main weaponry in ALL > situations. Translation: Enterprise runs away successfully, but can > only conduct hit-and-run combat. Cloaking may help some, but wiping > out the Death Star would take A LOT of time. And a lot of fuel. > The Enterprise *can* fire at stationary objects. The tracking systems are accurate up to around warp 3. Also, the phasers can be fired at warp speed. The reason they couldn't in STTMP was that the warp drives were malfunctioning. Finally, even allowing for 'phaser cooling' and torpedo loading, the enterprise can get off enough shots as slowly as it wants, if the DS can never hit it. This is through the view point of Task Force Game's "Star Fleet Battles", which I feel does an excellent jobs of representing the Star Trek universe. Kevin Chu ucbvax!ucdavis!vega!ccs020 /ex
goldman@umn-cs.UUCP (Matthew D. Goldman ) (05/17/85)
Scales
======
Enterprise
250 - 400 yards long
Death Star
size of a small moon
50 - 100+ miles in diameter
Stardestroyer
0.5 - 1.5 miles long
Super Stardestroyer
3 - 5 miles long
Milinium (sp) Falcon
>75 yards long
Argo ( from Starblazers )
size of Yamato battleship from WWII
Battlestar Galactica
2.5 - 4.0 miles long
--
-------
Matthew Goldman
Computer Science Department
University of Minnesota
...ihnp4{!stolaf}!umn-cs!goldman
Home is where you take your hat off... Banzai!root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) (05/17/85)
> I'm not too sure how the Enterprise would fare against the Death Star. > It's one large mother and, allegedly, armed to the teeth. It also > has screens for repelling attack from any large ship (that's how the > X-Wings got in...they're small. Remember, though, even they encountered > turbulance coming through.) Would they repell the Enterprise? Don't think the Death Star had any shields at all. The turbulence was from the Death Star's "magentic field." > Also, remember they do have some moderately big guns for defense against > large ships. These were not effective against the little fighters, so > they sent out TIE fighters to "destroy them ship by ship." (or something > like that.) What a SCENE! Thousands of medium-size turbo-lasers blazing away at the Big E. Kirk wouldn't have a chance! > Of course, how big is the Enterprise, compared with the big ships of the > Empire? Is it bigger than the Millenium Falcon? MUCH bigger. The Mellenium Falcon could easily park on top of the Enterprise saucer. -- UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root - Lord Frith ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO Nasha Lutcha!
wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) (05/18/85)
> Scales > ====== > > Enterprise > 250 - 400 yards long > > Death Star > 50 - 100+ miles in diameter > > Stardestroyer > 0.5 - 1.5 miles long . . . > > Battlestar Galactica > 2.5 - 4.0 miles long > It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog....:-) Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja)