wjmadden@mit-priam.UUCP (Warren J. Madden) (07/10/85)
[Project Athena -- MIT's very own Greek tragedy] I just saw "The Tholian Web" the other night, and it shattered forever my conception of Spock as an honest man, er, Vulcan. During the course of the episode, Kirk is assumed dead. Spock and McCoy follow Kirk's standing last order, which is to view a tape prepared by Kirk for just such a situation. At the end of the show, however, Kirk (who has of course been saved) asks the pair if the tape helped them through the crisis. Both repeatedly deny having viewed it. Sigh, if one cannot depend upon Spock's honesty, what can one depend upon? Warren J. Madden MIT-ATHENA.MIT.EDU ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!wjmadden
barnett@ut-sally.UUCP (Lewis Barnett) (07/11/85)
> > [Project Athena -- MIT's very own Greek tragedy] > > I just saw "The Tholian Web" the other night, and it shattered > forever my conception of Spock as an honest man, er, Vulcan. During the > > Warren J. Madden > MIT-ATHENA.MIT.EDU > ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!wjmadden This whole fallacy of Spock's unfailing honesty seems to be based on taking his statement to the Romulan commander in "The Enterprise Incident" at face value. What we fail to take into consideration is that this statement was made as part of a colossal hoax perpetrated on both the Romulans AND the crew of the Enterprise in order to steal the cloaking device. Kirk carried out the hoax with Spock's knowledge and help. So, here, in one neat package, Spock is guilty of conspiracy, prevarication, and theft. Since this discussion cropped up on the net, I've noticed in viewing Star Trek that Spock is just as capable of dissembling as the next fellow (Vulcan or human) and does so quite frequently, when it is called for by the situation. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett
ugzannin@sunybcs.UUCP (Adrian Zannin) (07/12/85)
> > > I just saw "The Tholian Web" the other night, and it shattered > forever my conception of Spock as an honest man, er, Vulcan. During the > course of the episode, Kirk is assumed dead. Spock and McCoy follow > Kirk's standing last order, which is to view a tape prepared by Kirk for > just such a situation. At the end of the show, however, Kirk (who has > of course been saved) asks the pair if the tape helped them through the > crisis. Both repeatedly deny having viewed it. Sigh, if one cannot > depend upon Spock's honesty, what can one depend upon? > As I recall, Spock never out and out denied it. When Kirk asked about the tape that they were supposed to have viewed, McCoy *did* deny it but Spock just said something to the effect of "Tape? What tape?" and then kind of shrugged and shuffled and mumbled a bit without ever actually denying that he saw the tape. Like Spock said in "The Enterprise Incident", "Is it a lie to keep the truth to one's self?" So Spock's image of honesty is still preserved. -- Adrian Zannin ..{burdvax,rocksvax,bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath}!sunybcs!ugzannin
barnett@ut-sally.UUCP (Lewis Barnett) (07/12/85)
> > > > I just saw "The Tholian Web" the other night, and it shattered > > forever my conception of Spock as an honest man, er, Vulcan. During the > > .... > > just such a situation. At the end of the show, however, Kirk (who has > > of course been saved) asks the pair if the tape helped them through the > > crisis. Both repeatedly deny having viewed it. > > As I recall, Spock never out and out denied it. When Kirk asked about > the tape that they were supposed to have viewed, McCoy *did* deny it but > Spock just said something to the effect of "Tape? What tape?" and then > kind of shrugged and shuffled and mumbled a bit without ever actually denying > that he saw the tape. > -- > Adrian Zannin > ..{burdvax,rocksvax,bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath}!sunybcs!ugzannin Maybe this is flogging a dead horse (see my earlier posting on the subject), but coincidentally, I just saw this episode two or three days ago, and as a result of this discussion, paid close attention to the exchange cited above. I can't quote the lines exactly, but Spock *did* clearly deny having listened to the tape, just as McCoy did. And, as I said before, I think that "Vulcan's cannot lie," is a false premise -- and Spock has proved it time and time again. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett
freeman@spar.UUCP (Jay Freeman) (07/12/85)
[ This line for the flying pizza-lineaters ] As a fine point or quibble (depending on what you had for breakfast :-) ), it seems to me that there is a difference between honesty and integrity; and that the latter is (a) the more important quality, and (b) what ol' pointy-ears has lots of. -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)(canonical disclaimer)
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (07/14/85)
> > As I recall, Spock never out and out denied it. When Kirk asked about > > the tape that they were supposed to have viewed, McCoy *did* deny it but > > Spock just said something to the effect of "Tape? What tape?" and then > > kind of shrugged and shuffled and mumbled a bit without ever actually denying > > that he saw the tape. > > -- > > Adrian Zannin > > Maybe this is flogging a dead horse (see my earlier posting on the subject), > but coincidentally, I just saw this episode two or three days ago, and > as a result of this discussion, paid close attention to the exchange > cited above. I can't quote the lines exactly, but Spock *did* clearly > deny having listened to the tape, just as McCoy did. And, as I said before, > I think that "Vulcan's cannot lie," is a false premise -- and Spock has > proved it time and time again. > > > Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 > Yeah, but Spock isn't REALLY a Vulcan, so possibly he has a harder time not lieing. Besides, the whole concept of that scene is that Spock & Bones are pulling a funny. Pulling a funny is not a Vulcan kind of thing to do, either. -- "We can't afford to be innocent." Peter Merchant
gaynor@topaz.ARPA (Gaynor) (07/15/85)
In the discussion of Spock's honesty, has anyone brought up the fact that Spock may have lied when discussing his race's honesty? Silver.
dahlback@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/16/85)
In any case, the significance of their "lies" in this context (if I remember correctly) was that in Captain Kirk's final tape he expressed his true feelings for them, feelings he wouldn't have expressed otherwise (being captain). So the "lie" was far more meaningful than the prosaic truth would have been. Sort of the converse of Twain's epigram, "It takes two people to hurt you to the core: your enemy to talk behind your back, and your friend to carry the news to you."
kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) (07/20/85)
> In the discussion of Spock's honesty, has anyone brought up the fact > that Spock may have lied when discussing his race's honesty? > > Silver. Now listen to me carefully, Norman. I am lying! --- Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin "It's sort of a threat, you see. I've never been very good at them myself but I'm told they can be very effective."
meier@srcsip.UUCP (C Michael Meier) (07/21/85)
Spock cannot prove again and again that the premise "Vulcans cannot lie" is false, as he is half human, half vulcan. Therefore, Spock can lie, and Vulcans cannot lie. Christopher Meier Honeywell S&RC/SIP/AI/KNOWWARE meier@srcsip
ccs020@ucdavis.UUCP (Kevin Chu) (07/26/85)
> > In the discussion of Spock's honesty, has anyone brought up the fact > > that Spock may have lied when discussing his race's honesty? > > > > Silver. > > > Now listen to me carefully, Norman. I am lying! > > > --- > Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin Spock didn't say that. Harry Mudd said it after Kirk told Norman that everything Mudd says is a lie. --Kevin Chu ..ucbvax!ucdavis!vega!ccs020 /ex
ran@bentley.UUCP (RA Novo) (07/26/85)
I seem to remember somewhere Spock denying that Vulcans were unable to lie, and that in fact it was possible to lie when it seemed like the logical thing to do. He the used the example of a "white" lie, a lie in order to avoid hurting the feelings of another. I believe that it was the captain that he lied to in this instance. I can't quite remember where this occured, though, but I think that is was in either the novel _Spock Must Die_, or in one of the stories in the collection _Star Trek: The New Voyages_ (either volumes one or two). Can someone comment if they remember this, and also are these books part of the "accepted canon" of the world of Startrek? -- Robert A. Novo "Captain! They put creatures AT&T Bell Labs in our ears! They made us say Piscataway, NJ things that weren't true!" ...bentley!ran
cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) (10/25/85)
In article <392@ucdavis.UUCP> ccs020@ucdavis.UUCP (Kevin Chu) writes: >> > In the discussion of Spock's honesty, has anyone brought up the fact >> > that Spock may have lied when discussing his race's honesty? >> >> Now listen to me carefully, Norman. I am lying! > > Spock didn't say that. Harry Mudd said it after Kirk told Norman > that everything Mudd says is a lie. > True, but I do recall Spock fibbing on other occasions. For instance, he told several lies in the episode (whose name I can't recall) in which the Romulan cloaking device was introduced. On other occasions Spock has told lies or made deceptive statements when it was necessary, as in the episode quoted above, where he tells a pair of the Alices that he loves one of them, but hates the other. In short, whether or not to tell the truth is subject to the same relentless Vulcan logic as everything else. He tells the truth when it suits him. Of course he claims to tell the truth always because his occasional lies are more effective if people believe this.