ccrse@ucdavis.UUCP (Steve Ehrhardt) (10/04/85)
From postnews Mon Jul 22 11:49:00 1985 Subject: cables and ground loops Newsgroups: net.audio Distribution: net > > > > That is COMMODOR Decker, not Captain. I never understood why Kirk > > had to be reduced from Admiral to Captain after the end of the first movie. > > Was he? I don't remember him being reduced. He wa still Admiral Kirk to > Kahn (Khan?) in STII. > If I recall correctly, he still was Admiral Kirk in STII. As I understand it, a commodore is an officer put in charge of a par- ticular mission (usually involving several ships) who does not necessarily outrank the commanders of the ships put under his command. For example, he may be a captain himself, but for purposes of the mission at hand, he may com- mand several other captains who may even be senior to him. In the case of both admirals and commodores, they are seldom in command of the vessel that they themselves are aboard. Their area of responsibility is the overall tactical command of the mission, leaving the operation of the various ships, including the flagship (the ship carrying the admiral/commodore), to their respective captains. It is considered very bad form for the flag officer to interfere directly in the operations of his flagship, but on the other hand, the captain of said vessel can hardly afford to ignore the "sugges- tions" of the flag officer. These sorts of situations are famous for creating all sorts of tension and bad blood between the captain and flag officer. An interesting thought occurs to me after writing the above: why not make Spock the captain of the Enterprise (or whatever other name a new ship might have) and saddle him with Kirk as a flag officer aboard? The fireworks might be spectacular when Kirk found he couldn't always have his own way! Any comments???
adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) (10/09/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > It is considered very bad form for the flag > officer to interfere directly in the operations of his flagship, but on the > other hand, the captain of said vessel can hardly afford to ignore the > "suggestions" of the flag officer. These sorts of situations are famous > for creating all sorts of tension and bad blood between the captain and > flag officer. Now that we have all of this naval expertise floating around the net, perhaps someone could finally explain to me that "personal authority as Captain of the Big E" nonsense that Kirk pulled on Commodore Decker in "Doomsday Machine". I never understood how that could hold any water whatsoever. Sure, he was right, as usual, but was he really within his rights? -- -- Mark A. ...{uw-beaver|fluke}!ssc-vax!adolph "1 + 1 = 1, for sufficiently small values of 1..."
mnw@trwrba.UUCP (Michael N. Washington) (10/11/85)
In article <275@ssc-vax.UUCP> adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) writes: >*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > > >Now that we have all of this naval expertise floating around the net, >perhaps someone could finally explain to me that "personal authority as >Captain of the Big E" nonsense that Kirk pulled on Commodore Decker in >"Doomsday Machine". I never understood how that could hold any water >whatsoever. Sure, he was right, as usual, but was he really within his >rights? >-- > > -- Mark A. > ...{uw-beaver|fluke}!ssc-vax!adolph > > "1 + 1 = 1, for sufficiently small values of 1..." Well, first, Captain Kirk should not have been off the bridge of his ship in the first place. Second, even though he is not physically on the ship, he is still responsible for whatever happens on his ship. He can leave any of his senior officers in charge of the Big E. Second, Commodore Decker did not follow procedure when boarding the Enterprise. He should have been taken directly to Sick Bay for checkout. He was aboard a ship that was heavily damaged and could be suffering from radiation poisoning, or a multitude of other things. Third, Decker definitely endangered the Big E. and could have been brought up on charges (provided they all survived to levy any charges). The Captain had every right to relieve Decker aboard his ship. He was not rationally trying to combat the doomsday machine. He knew that phasers were not effective against its hull. He should have coordinated both starships in an effort to fight the doomsday machine. I am sure that there were other courses that could have been taken. But, then again, we would not have had a story. The same thing happened in ST II: TWOK! Kirk should have immediately raised shields when Reliant did not respond to the Big E! Anyone could have stolen a starship and used it for his/her gain!!! "Live Long and Prosper!" Michael N. Washington TRW E&DS Redondo Beach, Ca. 90278 {ucbvax,decvax,hplabs}!trwrb!trwrba!mnw
johnw@astroatc.UUCP (10/16/85)
In article <275@ssc-vax.UUCP> adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) writes: >*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** >Now that we have all of this naval expertise floating around the net, >perhaps someone could finally explain to me that "personal authority as >Captain of the Big E" nonsense that Kirk pulled on Commodore Decker in >"Doomsday Machine". I never understood how that could hold any water >whatsoever. Sure, he was right, as usual, but was he really within his >rights? This is my memory, so if I'm having parity errors (which are nomral at 3:30, send flames to net.flames or /dev/nullm but not to me.) Bones was telling Spock that Decker couldn't do it. Bones wanted to declare Decker insane. Spock was quoteing regulations, and being a good soldier (tho perhaps not being logical, since he probably argreed with bones) Spock makes Decker break off an attack via the insanity clause. Scotty fixes the radio on Deckers ship and Kirk talk with the folks on the big E. IMPORTANT PART: He orders Spock to assume command. His "personal authority" (in my opinion) means that if starfleet objects, it falls on his head, not Spocks. Given these comflicting orders, Spocks choise is easy. possible best line from same show: (happens twice I think) Scotty to Kirk: x,y,z and even one pdq are now fixed Kirk to Scotty, you've just earned your pay for the week/month. Similar situation in a different show (name it as a trivia Q!) "Scotty, your fired." To err is human, to screw up world news required the net. John W { anyplace-civilized } !uwvax!astroatc!johnw
barb@oliven.UUCP (Barbara Jernigan) (10/17/85)
> > An interesting thought occurs to me after writing the above: why not > make Spock the captain of the Enterprise (or whatever other name a new ship > might have) and saddle him with Kirk as a flag officer aboard? The fireworks > might be spectacular when Kirk found he couldn't always have his own way! > > Any comments??? But Spock *was* the captain of the *Enterprise* in STII. He officially relinquished command to Kirk after the shooting started. As he often said, he had no desire to command the ship, and it was Kirk's foremost gift. Barb KIRK: "Scotty, you're confined to quarters." SCOTT: "Aye, sir ... Thank you, sir! It will give me time to catch up on me technical journals!" ...talk about lemons into lemonade....
owen@rtp47.UUCP (Karl M. Owen) (10/30/85)
> If I recall correctly, he still was Admiral Kirk in STII. > True. > As I understand it, a commodore is an officer put in charge of a par- >ticular mission (usually involving several ships) who does not necessarily >outrank the commanders of the ships put under his command. For example, he >may be a captain himself, but for purposes of the mission at hand, he may com- >mand several other captains who may even be senior to him. > > In the case of both admirals and commodores, they are seldom in command >of the vessel that they themselves are aboard. Their area of responsibility >is the overall tactical command of the mission, leaving the operation of the >various ships, including the flagship (the ship carrying the admiral/commodore) >to their respective captains. It is considered very bad form for the flag >officer to interfere directly in the operations of his flagship, but on the >other hand, the captain of said vessel can hardly afford to ignore the "sugges- >tions" of the flag officer. These sorts of situations are famous for creating >all sorts of tension and bad blood between the captain and flag officer. > A pretty darned good description of the situation, although commodore is also used as a courtesy title for people holding the rank of captain but not in command of the ship they are on. > > An interesting thought occurs to me after writing the above: why not >make Spock the captain of the Enterprise (or whatever other name a new ship >might have) and saddle him with Kirk as a flag officer aboard? The fireworks >might be spectacular when Kirk found he couldn't always have his own way! > > Any comments??? Sure! As to your last suggestion, it's a very good one - in fact, they already did it in STII. You will recall that Captain Spock is in command of the training ship Enterprise and that Admiral Kirk makes a big thing of not wanting to take command of the ship back from him (see 2 preceeding paragraphs). Karl -- Karl M. Owen Data General, RTP, NC ...!seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!owen