boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) (11/07/85)
> From: ucdavis!ccrdave (Lord Kahless) >> Personally, I think the sieries authors didn't know the difference >> between Romulans and Klingons. > > Kirk sure doesn't. In his opening lines in II, he says that Klingons > never take prisoners. > [...] > 2) The incident was in Romulan space. Why bring Klingons into the > picture? Why do you say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario takes place in Romulan space? Is it perhaps because they make reference to entering "the Neutral Zone"? Well, there is a Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Klingon Empire as well, you know. One assumes that the bridge crew would have an idea about whether they were near Romulan space or Klingon space so that specifying which Neutral Zone they're approaching is unnecessary. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM
ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (0058) (11/08/85)
> Why do you say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario takes place in Romulan space? > Is it perhaps because they make reference to entering "the Neutral Zone"? > Well, there is a Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Klingon Empire > as well, you know. One assumes that the bridge crew would have an idea about > whether they were near Romulan space or Klingon space so that specifying > which Neutral Zone they're approaching is unnecessary. > > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) I'd have to borrow the tape from a friend, but I believe Sulu uses the word "Romulan". Also, the Klingon neutral zone isn't a restricted area where passage means war, as shown in SSTWOK, but only a neutral zone. Vessels flows back and forth. Note the passage of ships in Tribbles & and Private Little War that didn't stir a ripple. Shore leave rights. Lord Kahless
adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) (11/11/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > Personally, I think the sieries authors didn't know the difference > between Romulans and Klingons. I stated some time ago that Paramount seems to have developed a thing against Romulans. In STII, we hear talk about the "Klingon Neutral Zone", which looks suspiciously like the Romulan Neutral Zone. In STIII, we hear about the "Klingon Bird of Prey" (?!), The "Klingon Cloaking Device", etc. But more importantly, those guys that killed David ACT LIKE ROMULANS! I contend that they were originally written as Romulans and that somebody who knows nothing about what they're doing stuck their nose in the screenwriter's business and screwed things up. Watch STIII again sometime and then see if you can look me straight in the CRT screen tell me that those are Klingons. -- Mark -- -- Mark A. ...{uw-beaver|fluke}!ssc-vax!adolph "1 + 1 = 1, for sufficiently small values of 1..."
brown@utflis.UUCP (Susan Brown) (11/12/85)
In article <260@ucdavis.UUCP> ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (0058) writes: >> Why do you say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario takes place in Romulan space? >> Is it perhaps because they make reference to entering "the Neutral Zone"? >> Well, there is a Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Klingon Empire >> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) >I'd have to borrow the tape from a friend, but I believe Sulu uses >the word "Romulan". Also, the Klingon neutral zone isn't a restricted >area where passage means war, as shown in SSTWOK, but only a neutral zone. >Vessels flows back and forth. Note the passage of ships in Tribbles & >and Private Little War that didn't stir a ripple. Shore leave rights. > Lord Kahless Spare your friend, neither Sulu nor anyone else, including the computer, specify what neutral zone they are entering. However, I tend to support your main point - Klingon arrangements are different. The class of ship being used is not indicative either since (as You know of course) Romulans have been flying Klingon design ships since "Enterprise Incident" at least. sb
ccs020@ucdavis.UUCP (Kevin Chu) (11/13/85)
> *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > > > Personally, I think the sieries authors didn't know the difference > > between Romulans and Klingons. > > I stated some time ago that Paramount seems to have developed a thing > against Romulans. In STII, we hear talk about the "Klingon Neutral > Zone", which looks suspiciously like the Romulan Neutral Zone. In > STIII, we hear about the "Klingon Bird of Prey" (?!), The "Klingon > Cloaking Device", etc. But more importantly, those guys that killed > David ACT LIKE ROMULANS! I contend that they were originally written > as Romulans and that somebody who knows nothing about what they're > doing stuck their nose in the screenwriter's business and screwed > things up. Watch STIII again sometime and then see if you can look me > straight in the CRT screen tell me that those are Klingons. > > -- Mark A. I have to agree with you. When the 'klingon' bird of prey dropped its 'cloaking device', Sulu noted that it was "arming torpedoes". In the series it was the Romulans who had the plasma torpedoes. As a side note, how come the Federation never devoloped their knowledge of the Romulan cloaking device they stole? -- --Kevin Chu ..!{ucbvax,lll-crg,dual}!ucdavis!vega!ccs020
bl@hplabsb.UUCP (11/14/85)
> > > > > Personally, I think the sieries authors didn't know the difference > > > between Romulans and Klingons. > > > > I stated some time ago that Paramount seems to have developed a thing > > against Romulans. In STII, we hear talk about the "Klingon Neutral > > Zone", which looks suspiciously like the Romulan Neutral Zone. In > > STIII, we hear about the "Klingon Bird of Prey" (?!), The "Klingon > > Cloaking Device", etc. But more importantly, those guys that killed > > David ACT LIKE ROMULANS! I contend that they were originally written > > as Romulans and that somebody who knows nothing about what they're > > doing stuck their nose in the screenwriter's business and screwed > > things up. Watch STIII again sometime and then see if you can look me > > straight in the CRT screen tell me that those are Klingons. > > > > -- Mark A. > > I have to agree with you. When the 'klingon' bird of prey dropped > its 'cloaking device', Sulu noted that it was "arming torpedoes". > In the series it was the Romulans who had the plasma torpedoes. > > As a side note, how come the Federation never devoloped their knowledge > of the Romulan cloaking device they stole? Now here is the true story of the confusion. The Romulans and Klingons not only signed a joint defense treaty but also a trade treaty. This led to a mixing of technology, customs, and population. Eventually through cross breeding there emerged a single race, the Klingulans. This is why there is now A neutral zone and why the creatures now have bumpy heads. I hope this clears up the confusion. :-)
trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) (11/15/85)
> > As a side note, how come the Federation never devoloped their knowledge > of the Romulan cloaking device they stole? > -- I don't know how many of you play Role-Playing(*) games, but the FASA corporation has been given the task of formulating almost all the ST knowledge into the ST rpg they produce. It mentions briefly that the cloaking device they stole was tested and examined. All it says after that is that there was some nasty accident that occurred when the Federation retested the cloaking device, although no particulars are given. One is led to believe that the ship using the device completely vanished out of existence. Needles to say, the Federation droppped all further research into the subject. As far as other things go, I am really impressed about the material that FASA has compiled. They have extensive material from the show, and most of it is close to other material previously published. Being that FASA has official sanction from Paramount Pictures, I tend to take what they say as official 'gospel' when in comes to Star Trek. If you're intreagued by what I've said, I'd recommend the following materials: Star Trek Role Playing Game, Basic Set. The Klingons The Romulans The latter two are provided as more information than game data (for the most part), and provide the background for the players. Damn, this is sounding like too much of a commercial. I'll cut it short, and say that a lot of knowledge can be gained by reading all that stuff. *-I capitalize to make the term look better, not because it's a proper name or anything...:-) -- Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel Bill: He's hip, he's hot, and he's hairy. -Rolling Stone
okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Doctor Who) (11/18/85)
In article <559@utflis.UUCP>, brown@utflis.UUCP (Susan Brown) writes: > In article <260@ucdavis.UUCP> ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (0058) writes: > >> Why do you say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario takes place in > >> Romulan space? > >I'd have to borrow the tape from a friend, but I believe Sulu uses > >the word "Romulan". Also, the Klingon neutral zone isn't a restricted > >area where passage means war, as shown in SSTWOK, but only a neutral zone. > >Vessels flows back and forth. > > Lord Kahless > Spare your friend, neither Sulu nor anyone else, including the computer, > specify what neutral zone they are entering. > sb One point you all seem to be missing. The call from the Kobayashi Maru specified that their location as "Gamma Hydra, Section 10". If you'll remember "The Deadly Years", you'll notice that the only Neutral Zone near them is the Romulan Neutral Zone. The New Number Who, okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfernspledenschlittcrasscrenbonfriedigger- dingledangledongleburesteinvonkanckerthrasherapplebangerhorowitzicol- ensicgranderknottspelltinklegrandlichgrumblemeyerspeltorwasserkurst- lichimmleeisenbahnwagengutenabendbitteeinneurnburgerbratwurstlegger- spurtenmitzweimacherluberhundsfutgumberabeshonenedankerkablsfleich- mittleraucher von Hauptkof ap Rabinski of Ulm.
mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (11/21/85)
> I don't know how many of you play Role-Playing(*) games, but the FASA > corporation has been given the task of formulating almost all the ST knowledge > into the ST rpg they produce. It mentions briefly that the cloaking device > they stole was tested and examined. All it says after that is that there > was some nasty accident that occurred when the Federation retested the > cloaking device, although no particulars are given. One is led to believe that > the ship using the device completely vanished out of existence. Needles > to say, the Federation droppped all further research into the subject. Why is it considered obvious that they would stop research after this? I'd think they'd want to find out what happened, for use as a possible weapon if no other reason (we are talking about a military organization, after all). "The US military was developing a secret weapon during the 40's, but the experiment got out of hand and 2 Japanese cities were totally destroyed. Needless to say, they immediately halted all research and covered up all evidence of the incident. There are some things man was not meant to know." Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan "A flash in front of my eyes ... I blink ... open my eyes to ... discover I am a dog in a pickup truck full of garbage ... no one but me sees the lid blow off the can ... it's 14 miles to the dump ... this is ... at last ... heaven."
m1b@rayssd.UUCP (M. Joseph Barone) (11/21/85)
>>>> Why do you say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario takes place in >>>> Romulan space? After the simulator has been trashed, doesn't Kirk say something to the effect that Saavik should say her prayers since *Klingons* don't take prisoners? If this scenario takes place in the Romulan neutral zone, who would care about the Klingons' attitude toward prisoners? Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI 02871
trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) (11/23/85)
> > ... cloaking device... > > ... some nasty accident that occurred when the Federation retested the > > cloaking device, although no particulars are given. One is led to believe that > > the ship using the device completely vanished out of existence. Needles > > to say, the Federation droppped all further research into the subject. > > Why is it considered obvious that they would stop research after this? I'd > think they'd want to find out what happened, for use as a possible weapon > if no other reason (we are talking about a military organization, after all). Yes, but you see, the device that they stole was the one that disappeared. You can't continue research when you lack the necessary equipment. They would have had to steal another one entirely. > "The US military was developing a secret weapon during the 40's, but the > experiment got out of hand and 2 Japanese cities were totally destroyed. > Needless to say, they immediately halted all research and covered up all > evidence of the incident. Yes, but the Russians didn't. > Scott McEwan -- Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel Bill: He's hip, he's hot, and he's hairy. -Rolling Stone
ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless @ Imperial Propoganda) (11/23/85)
> After the simulator has been trashed, doesn't Kirk say something > to the effect that Saavik should say her prayers since *Klingons* don't > take prisoners? If this scenario takes place in the Romulan neutral > zone, who would care about the Klingons' attitude toward prisoners? > > Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b Given all the evidence that it was Romulan space, including the fact that this is the same sector as Deadly Years (thanks for that one!) it seems as if this really is the Romulan neutral zone. Kirk's comment is indeed strange for two reasons. 1) It isn't a simulation of Klingon space. 2) Kirk was a Klingon prisoner in Day of the Dove, and they let him live. It would seem Kirk doesn't know the Klingon Empire from the Romulan Empire. Perhaps he is going senile. Slip of the tongue? Any thoughts?
knutsonk@stolaf.UUCP (Kari E. Knutson) (11/25/85)
> > After the simulator has been trashed, doesn't Kirk say something > > to the effect that Saavik should say her prayers since *Klingons* don't > > take prisoners? If this scenario takes place in the Romulan neutral > > zone, who would care about the Klingons' attitude toward prisoners? I just watched this two nights ago (for the celebration of Nat'l Tribble Day) and I don't recall Kirk saying anything about the Klingons, since Kirk didn't come on to the "bridge" until the simulation was over. As I recall, it was Sulu or Spock (I really don't remember...I thought about it at the time, too...). Now Sulu could have made a mistake, but not Spock. And anyway, they were surrounded by 3 Klingon ships, identified as such during the simulation. So I guess the scriptwriter must have goofed as to the sector, and not realised all the trouble he would get into!! Kari Knutson ...ihnp4!stolaf!knutsonk
elliottg@stolaf.UUCP (Glenn E. Elliott) (11/25/85)
> As I recall, it was Sulu or Spock (I really don't remember...I > thought about it at the time, too...). Now Sulu could have made a mistake, > but not Spock. And anyway, they were surrounded by 3 Klingon ships, > identified as such during the simulation. So I guess the scriptwriter > must have goofed as to the sector, and not realised all the trouble he would > get into!! > > Kari Knutson > ...ihnp4!stolaf!knutsonk Kari and I just talked about this, and we decided that it was the COMPUTER that identified the three cruisers as Klingons. I think it's obvious that the scriptwriter must have made a mistake since everyone knows that computers are infallible... :-) Glenn Elliott ...ihnp4!stolaf!elliottg
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (11/28/85)
> > After the simulator has been trashed, doesn't Kirk say something > > to the effect that Saavik should say her prayers since *Klingons* don't > > take prisoners? If this scenario takes place in the Romulan neutral > > zone, who would care about the Klingons' attitude toward prisoners? > > > > Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b > > Given all the evidence that it was Romulan space, including the fact > that this is the same sector as Deadly Years (thanks for that one!) > it seems as if this really is the Romulan neutral zone. I group this one with the ``Klingon'' Bird of Prey: I suspect someone at Para- mount said, "What's a Romulan? Eevryone knows Klingons are the enemy -- nobody will know what the hell a Romulan is! Scrap those damned Romulans in the script and write it with Klingons instead!" Which says a lot for the Trek savvy of some imbecile at Paramount... --Brandon -- Lord Charteris (thurb) ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNet (ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA) ..decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery (..ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St., Mentor, OH 44060 (I moved) --Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 -- MCI MAIL BALLBERY (WARNING: I am only a part-time denizen...) Until they figure out how to map CSNet-Relay.ARPA into the new Internet, UUCP.
ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless @ Imperial Propoganda) (11/29/85)
> I just watched this two nights ago (for the celebration of Nat'l > Tribble Day) and I don't recall Kirk saying anything about the > Klingons, since Kirk didn't come on to the "bridge" until the simulation > was over. As I recall, it was Sulu or Spock (I really don't remember...I > ...ihnp4!stolaf!knutsonk I borrowed the tape from a noted local Thought Master and viewed the offending scene. 1) It was the computer which identified the ships as Klingon. 2) Kirk DID say that Klingons don't take prisoners. It was about his second line, which he says after the simulator opens. Something like Saviik asks for advice and Kirk says "Pray, Mr. Saviik, since since Klingons never take prisoners." Lord Kahless
m1b@rayssd.UUCP (M. Joseph Barone) (12/04/85)
> In <4995@stolaf.UUCP> knutsonk@stolaf.UUCP (Kari E. Knutson) states: > I just watched this two nights ago (for the celebration of Nat'l > Tribble Day) and I don't recall Kirk saying anything about the > Klingons, since Kirk didn't come on to the "bridge" until the simulation > was over. As I recall, it was Sulu or Spock (I really don't remember...I > thought about it at the time, too...)... So I guess the scriptwriter > must have goofed as to the sector, and not realised all the trouble he would > get into!! I've been reading this debate for some time and I happened to be home when I read this one. I just finished reviewing the simulator scene and wrote down pertinent information *verbatim*. The computer is the first to state that the hostiles are Klingons. (Comments enclosed in '<>' are my editorial summaries.) Computer: Alert. Sensors indicate three Klingon cruisers bearing three one six mark four. < Granted, this only identifies the "make" of the ships, but after trying and failing to communicate with the Klingons (referred to as such by Saavik with no one correcting her if this had been an error)...> Computer: Klingons on attack course and closing. < After the simulation and Kirk strides into the opened simulator...> Saavik: Any sugestions, Admiral? Kirk: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners. Since Gamma Hydra, Section Ten is in or near Romulan space, I must agree with the conclusion that the writers are senile! Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI 02871
friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (12/05/85)
There's a lot of talk about the Kobayashi Maru scenario and the identity of the enemy ships and the Neutral Zone as Klingon or Romulan. No one seems to have mentioned one possible resolution of the dilemma that doesn't require assuming senile writers: The Klingon and Romulan Empires are assumed to have formed an alliance. It seems perfectly reasonable, then, that one might be near or in the Romulan Neutral Zone and encounter ships of the Romulans' allies. In other words, it's not unreasonable to discover Klingon ships in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Incidentally, such possibilities have actually been realized in some recent ST novels.
ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless @ Imperial Propoganda) (12/07/85)
> No one seems to have mentioned one possible resolution of the dilemma > that doesn't require assuming senile writers: > > The Klingon and Romulan Empires are assumed to have formed an alliance. > It seems perfectly reasonable, then, that one might be near or in the > Romulan Neutral Zone and encounter ships of the Romulans' allies. In > other words, it's not unreasonable to discover Klingon ships in the > Romulan Neutral Zone. Sorry, doesn't let the writers off of the hook. Kirk should have still known better. Klingons still take captives at times, irrespective of the fact that there may be Klingons in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Romulans are not Klingons, despite the fact that the movie writers seem to have blurred the distinction. Lord Kahless
ins_ajpo@jhunix.UUCP (Joseph Peter Ogulin) (12/07/85)
> The Klingon and Romulan Empires are assumed to have formed an alliance.
This is mentioned in the TV series in "The Enterprise Incident."
--
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CSNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix@hopkins.ARPAtom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) (12/10/85)
I beleive the only times we ever saw Klingons take captives were
when events, for one reason or another, took place away from the
umbrella of the Organian Peace Treaty. Kirk was probably quite
correct when he said Klingons don't take captives -- except
under extenuating circumstances.
After all, it's a bit silly for us to be saying that we know
more about Klingons than old James T. does ... :-)
RJS in Toronto
c/0
--
Tom Nadas
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