OAF%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA (12/14/83)
First, re asserting that A is scientific and B is religious may be hubristic: Beware the temptation to confuse an empty mind with an open one. Second, ------------------------------------------------------------ I think it would be good not to burden the readers of net.religion with the technical details of theories of origins. ____________________________________________________________ I don't know why. Third, I vote AGAINST net.origins - it will polarize into war between the creationists and the creationist-baiters. I hardly imagine anyone contributing factual statements to such a list. Your suggestion (for net.origins) bothers me for another reason. I think it represents a tactical triumph of creationism, which claims that science education (typified by the theory of evolution, as well as physical methods of dating the earth's origin by radioisotopic and astronomic means) is some kind of dogma, and unproven. But that is not the issue - those theories are examples of scientific method, and though the particular results may be presented as "established facts" there is a string of logical and empirical support for them, extending back to first principles and verifiable observation by humans using human senses. That logical grounding is qualitatively different from the type of "analysis" used by creationists. It spells the difference between what is science and what is not. Since the creationists are unwilling to play that game and take their lumps on the questions of refutability and logical consequences, they have no place in science education. As a result, setting the question of origins as a scientific question to be discussed among creationists and anti- creationists has no meaning. Establishing net.origins with that stated purpose concedes ahead of time something WHICH ISN'T TRUE, namely that creation "science" is science. It makes further debate specious. That is why I oppose net.origins. Replies welcomed. Oded Feingold ARPA: OAF@OZ Snail: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory 545 Tech Square Cambridge, Mass. 02139 Phony: 617-253-8598
stekas@hou2g.UUCP (J.STEKAS) (12/16/83)
No to net.origins!! Let's call it net.creation. After all, the creation "scientists" are not interested in the origins of life or the universe. Since their object is only to peddle creationism the newsgroup title should be as narrow as the subject - net.creation. Recently appearing in net.ai was the following rule-of-thumb with regard to determining whether a discipline is scientific: "If it has science in the title, it's not." Jim
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (12/16/83)
[From Oded Feingold:] First, re asserting that A is scientific and B is religious may be hubristic: Beware the temptation to confuse an empty mind with an open one. I'm not sure exactly what you mean to convey to me by this warning, but I do thank you for it. I assure you that, should I ever be confronted with such a powerful temptation, I will do everything humanly possible to resist it. Also, I have confidence that, if I should ever show signs of having failed in this effort, there are many persons on the net who are more than able to bring lucidity to my confused mind. Second, ------------------------------------------------------------ I think it would be good not to burden the readers of net.religion with the technical details of theories of origins. ____________________________________________________________ I don't know why. Simply because many who read that news group may not be interested. It seems to me that net.religion is not the place to submit discussion on the speed of light or evolutionary theory. Yet this is exactly what happens. It seems that many who are knowledgeable in these areas have poured out their knowledge in net.religion in response to the "bait" of creationists who (as you say) are not the least bit interested in submitting their beliefs to authoritative refutation. Such a waste! Surely there must be a way to get a more worthwhile audience. Third, I vote AGAINST net.origins - it will polarize into war between the creationists and the creationist-baiters. I hardly imagine anyone contributing factual statements to such a list. I have yet to see a "creationist-baiter" on the net. I seems to me that creationists are always the ones accused of doing the baiting. If such polarization does take place, it will only be because those who are able to contribute meaningfully and authoritatively to the discussion do not do so. Of course, some annoyance is unavoidable with this medium. Your suggestion (for net.origins) bothers me for another reason. I think it represents a tactical triumph of creationism, which claims that science education (typified by the theory of evolution, as well as physical methods of dating the earth's origin by radioisotopic and astronomic means) is some kind of dogma, and unproven. But that is not the issue - those theories are examples of scientific method, and though the particular results may be presented as "established facts" there is a string of logical and empirical support for them, extending back to first principles and verifiable observation by humans using human senses. That logical grounding is qualitatively different from the type of "analysis" used by creationists. Why is "scientific dogma" not an issue? There is much hidden controversy in the scientific community over origins. The firm logical and empirical support for much of what is presented as "established fact" in science education is crumbling--not necessarily at the hands of creationists. Darwinism is, for all practical purposes, dead and neo-Darwinism seems to be following it. I would like to know what is going to be replacing them since that does not seem to be common knowledge. I refer to books like Norman Macbeth's "Darwin Retried", (I recently read an interesting interview with Macbeth that appeared in the Spring 1982 issue of "Towards" magazine.) and "The Neck of the Giraffe" by Francis Hitching. These men are by no means creationists, but they admit to having a lot of common ground with some of them. I am also interested in discussion on the work of claddists (sp?), since, as Macbeth points out, their work offers little support for the commonly accepted form of phylogeny. The "behind the scenes" view of the scientific community offered in Nicholas Wade's recent book, "Betrayers of the Truth", does not lead me to believe that scientific endeavor actually relies completely on the use of pure logic and rests completely on empirical evidence. I find it hard to believe that the authors of this book (Wade was a co-author) do not know what they are talking about. They certainly have the credentials to write on the subject (One of them worked as a writer for the journal "Science" for 15 years). Their motive was not to deride science but to give us an accurate view of how it actually works--even with its problems--and to show that, though it is indispensable to the well being of mankind, it is not as glorious as it appears. In light of all this I hope you will forgive me for not having the logical empiricist view of science that you do. It spells the difference between what is science and what is not. Since the creationists are unwilling to play that game and take their lumps on the questions of refutability and logical consequences, they have no place in science education. As a result, setting the question of origins as a scientific question to be discussed among creationists and anti-creationists has no meaning. Establishing net.origins with that stated purpose concedes ahead of time something WHICH ISN'T TRUE, namely that creation "science" is science. It makes further debate specious. By opposing the creation of a forum in which this "game" can be played you prevent them from even having the chance to play it--thus assuring that they won't. In my reading I have found some creationists who do play the game you talk of and, of course, many who don't. But as I stated in my proposal, I am not interested the arguments of those who don't. If there are any creationist with access to the net who would be willing to submit their ideas to the refutation of scientists, how could you expect them to do it in net.religion? Anyway, you're vote counts against. I would like to hear from more people. Mail your preference for the creation of net.origins to me and I will post the consensus to the net. Paul "empty mind" Dubuc ... cbosgd!cbscc!pmd