[net.physics] Eddington/Kantor - reply to Douthat

sharp@kpnoa.UUCP (05/15/84)

<>
I have better things to do than discuss fringe science, but I've been feeling
depressed, and there's nothing better than a good argument !
That I am posting this now should not be taken to imply a commitment to continue
discussing such claims.
This is in response to cosivax!dzd, whose lines are quoted below.  Because he
posted the same thing three times, I am limiting my quotations.

>I would like to cite three references on several sides of these
>issues:
>
>   1) A. Eddington, "Universal Theory" <why fool around?>
>   
>   2) Kantor, "Information Mechanics"
>   
>   3) ?, "Cosmology, Physics and Philosophy"

1) I think you mean "Fundamental Theory", Cambridge University Press, 1953,
whose publication was supervised by E.T.Whittaker.

    For a fuller discussion of Eddington's ideas, and more of his actual notes
and ideas, see "The Development & Meaning of Eddington's `Fundamental Theory'",
by Noel B. Slater, published by Cambridge University Press in 1957.
    Eddington clearly intended that his work be considered as an epistemology -
i.e. a theory of knowledge - rather than a straight scientific treatise.
In it, he uses various broad principles, particularly concepts from quantum
mechanics, Newtonian mechanics, and relativity, to derive numerical values
for the fundamental physical constants.  Early on, he amended his calculations
so that they would agree with the observations, usually by complicating his
arguments until the (mainly) dimensional derivations fitted.  That is, there
were more than enough "spare" adjustable arguments to get anything right.
By contrast, if the bending of light around the sun had not agreed with
Einstein's General Relativity, the theory would have been doomed - IT has no
way out of disagreements.  Eddington claimed epistemology: if we feel it
necessary, as physicists usually do, to insist on accurate NUMERICAL agreement
as well, then we are denying that claim.
    It is clear that Eddington's conjectures have sparked a lot of argument and
calculation, and have done much good for physics.  However, the very great
arbitrariness evident in all the calculations have led most workers in what is,
after all, fundamentally a QUANTITATIVE discipline, concerned with getting the
numbers right, to dismiss Eddington's personal approach as sterile.

>
>Notice that under all variation of big bang theories, current
>universe is of finite size. This point seems to me to be
>under-appreciated by the "standard" cosmologists nowadays.

    I don't understand how it is that we "under-appreciate" this point.
I would personally appreciate clarification of this attack.

3) I am not familiar with any work of this title. I also do not know where
the remarks made by dzd about metrology & finite universes fit into Eddington.

>Finally, there is reference 2) which came out about four years
>ago and has been completely ignored as far as I can find out. It
>is either completely crackpot or the **ANSWER**. It proceeds from
.....

     Got it in one.  A simple search has turned up no information about
Frederick W. Kantor, and his book (published in 1977 by Wiley Interscience)
contains no biography.
    The work is based on a peculiarly personal definition of "information".
Since a system is in only one state out of all possible states it could
occupy, the "information" of that state is defined to be log2 of the number
of all possible alternatives (Definition 1, page 37).
    Let's start at the beginning: Theorem 1 states that "information" is
conserved in an isolated non-relativistic quantum mechanical (NRQM) system.
The argument is based on NRQM, and is essentially the argument that the number
of possible QM states depends on the energy, which cannot change because the
system is isolated. Fair enough.  Kantor then states that he considers
this conservation of information to be more fundamental than the NRQM from which
he derived it.  But, for example, if I change one of the distinguishable QM
states into another, different, but still distinguishable, state, then the
information has not changed (total no. of states, remember ?), but the QM
system certainly has.  In this sense, the QM theory is MORE restrictive than
the conservation principle, and therefore more likely to be fundamental.
    Theorem 2: all information in an electromagnetic system is representable
by photon state occupation numbers without phase.  Now, normally in QM and EM,
the phase of photons is very relevant, so this is an interesting statement -
the most fundamental property, Kantor's information, is independent of phase.
The argument goes:  Take a detector, which assigns each photon to its state
                    (this is unambiguous, since no position measurement)
                    But, energy & time obey an uncertainty relation, so to
                    do this requires infinite time.
                    But, infinite time => infinite phase uncertainty.
                    Removing all energy by this measurement removes all the
                    information from the system.
                    Therefore, all information is representable without phase.
Can you spot the fallacy ?  If I remove properties from a system without
recording some of them, and I have no properties left, then I have recorded
all of the properties.  I have phrased it this way to emphasise the distinction
between "record" and "remove".

    At this point, (only page 41, of which 34 are a "summary introduction")
things get more technical.  By postulating a box containing two photons, 
Kantor derives E=mc^2.  This box has internally contradictory properties,
and the "proof" is no more than using de Broglie's mass/wavelength relation
and the Doppler shift.  Standard stuff.

    Is this theory worthwhile, anyway ? In other words, does it tell us
something we didn't know before ?  Well, it certainly claims to: section
five is a list of interesting predictions and experiments.  A great many of
them have to do with esoteric particle properties, which I have neither the
time nor the inclination to investigate.  Two others are particularly
interesting: predicted values for Hubble's constant and for the density
of the Universe.  Translating Kantor's units, H is about 29 km/s/Mpc -
current "best guesses" are 50-100, with no observers who study this topic
even approaching this low.  The density is given as 3.38 x 10^-27 kg/m^3,
and this is a little tricky to compare with observations, which depend on
H as well.  I estimate that it corresponds to twice the closure density
for the predicted H.  Current estimates are generally independent of H,
because of their derivation, and reach maybe .5 to .7 of closure.

    It seems that the theory breaks down early on, and disagrees with
observation anyway.

    Perhaps it's been ignored for 7 years simply because it is of no use ?

:-) Sharp's theorem:
  When an eminent and respected scientist goes crazy, he is at least plausible.
  When an unknown fringe scientist goes crazy, he's very probably crazy.

>BTW: If you think this question is dumb, remember that modern
>scientific cosmology began when somebody [Hubble?] asked:
>   "Why is the sky dark at night?"

    Interesting, if a trifle out.  It is perhaps possible to argue that the
first time someone tried to ANSWER this was the beginning of cosmology.
It seems to have been Kepler, around 1610, although it is often known
as Olbers' paradox, after Heinrich Olbers, who in 1823 presented a completely
erroneous answer.  See the excellent chapter 12 of E.R.Harrison's book
"Cosmology" (Cambridge University Press, 1981)

    OK, that should be enough for now !
    I should emphasise that quite a few "standard scientists" like myself
are quite willing to entertain unusual ideas.  They need to be plausible,
have numerical, testable predictions, and be clearly separate from philosophy
in order to be considered, however.  (Note that philosophy is something I
enjoy, but physics is about observables NOT intangibles.)
-- 

	Nigel Sharp     National Optical Astronomy Observatories
			Tucson, Arizona			(602) 325-9273	

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