sean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) (12/13/84)
I think the question here is: Are there any truly random forces? Do we all behave according to a mathematical model too difficult to comprehend or measure? If there are no random forces, the answer would seem to be yes. I'd like to hear some real theoret- ical discussion on this if I can persuade some physicist types to do so. Sean Casey (..qusavx!ukma!sean)
emh@bonnie.UUCP (Edward M. Hummel) (12/14/84)
>I think the question here is: Are there any truly random forces? >Do we all behave according to a mathematical model too difficult >to comprehend or measure? If there are no random forces, the >answer would seem to be yes. I'd like to hear some real theoret- >ical discussion on this if I can persuade some physicist types to >do so. For those who believe there is some truth in quantum field theory, the answer must be that all forces are 'random' (with the possible exception of gravity) if one looks at a small enough scale. Forces are transmitted by particles which are the result of quantizing the "force" field. electromagnetism: photons weak interactions: W+,Z0,W- strong interaction: gluons (I hesitate to list gravity because the jury is still out) The motion of these intermediary particles is not deterministic in the classical sense. Rather they follow quantum mechanical 'equations of motion' with the associated probabilistic interpertation. Ed Hummel
gwyn@brl-tgr.ARPA (12/18/84)
> I think the question here is: Are there any truly random forces?
The consensus of the physics community appears to be that quantum
laws are inherently random, and that this is NOT just a lack of
detailed understanding of a really deterministic situation.
This bothers me..jlg@lanl.ARPA (12/19/84)
> > I think the question here is: Are there any truly random forces? > > The consensus of the physics community appears to be that quantum > laws are inherently random, and that this is NOT just a lack of > detailed understanding of a really deterministic situation. > > This bothers me.. Actually, it IS (maybe) just a lack of detailed understanding of a really deterministic situation. Unfortunately, the uncertainty principle states that if there is such an underlying determinism, it is inherently unknowable. So, Quantum mechanics may as well be completely non- deterministic for any practical discussion. Note that even a deterministic system may be completely unpredictable. Consider the stopping problem in computing science. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so - Louis Pastuer James Giles
hull@hao.UUCP (12/20/84)
> > I think the question here is: Are there any truly random forces? > > The consensus of the physics community appears to be that quantum > laws are inherently random, and that this is NOT just a lack of > detailed understanding of a really deterministic situation. > > This bothers me.. Yes. Me too. I had been told that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle was a *measurement effect* caused by the fact that we must necessarily investigate the state of things using the objects at hand (i.e. leptons, baryons, photons, gravitons, intermediate vector bosons (:-), etc.) and must do so within our own space-time reference. Yet I have seen numerous references on the net to Uncertainty being a property of the objects being investigated, rather than a combination of the properties of the objects and the energy of the test entity (probe thing). These references are especially centered on "virtual particles" (which I had assumed were [perhaps imaginary?] solutions to the exchange equations). What gives? Howard Hull {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | harpo!seismo } !hao!hull
long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) (12/22/84)
Either way, it doesn't bother me. Since I view the universe as a very large simulation,(don't ask of what!) I wouldn't mind a certain amount of inherent randomness. In fact, if I was a "Creator", I'd install a cosmic random-number generator just to add a bit of randomness to my universe. Dave Long