gary@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (gary w buchholz) (08/14/85)
In the past I've heard about some places in Michigan and Wisconsin where one can experience some weird gravitational phenomenon. A few days ago on my way back from a camping trip in Wisconsin I had the opportunity to visit such a site at Lake Delton. Many people I have told this to have told me that what I saw there and what I experienced there was "faked" and I am open to that possibility. But, in all honesty I must say that I do not find their "alternate explanation" convincing. I will not go into detail about all the demonstrations that were performed there but will address a single one that cannot be easily explained by any "trickery" or optical illusion. The site is the side of a very small valley. A "platform" (originally the site of a cabin) is built midway up the side. The peculiar thing is that while standing on the platform (or in the area generally) one feels a (gravitational) "pull" towards the opposite side of the valley (approx 400 feet away) such that one must stand at an angle in order to stand upright. Now here is where people interject and say that the "pull" and the angle of incline at which one must stand to remain upright is due to the floor of the platform that appears to be level is in fact not level and this is how the "illusion" of the abnormal gravitational field is produced. The problem with this explanation is the experimental fact (I tried this) that one cannot walk a straight line across the platform parallel to the side of the hill. The problem is that the "pull" (here I will not imply a cause) is *significantly* non-uniform. That is, when one walks across the floor one is walking at an angle and the angle at which one must position ones body in order to stand upright changes as a function of where one is located on the floor. Put simply, the reason why one cannot walk a straight line across the floor is because as one moves to the opposite end one always finds that that the angle correction to remain upright is always different and this results in an erratic path across the floor as one is constantly finding that one has either over corrected or under corrected for the next position to be taken. The explanation given by these people who run the demonstration is that there is a meteorite embedded in the opposite side of the hill and the mass is such that the gravitational field in the area is severely distorted. The explanation given by my friends(?) is that I'm "nuts" and that I've been taken in by an illusion. I worked out the physics of this and the mass of the meteorite would have to be on the order of 10**11 tons of extremely high density - too high for "normal" matter. I don't find the "illusion" theory convincing either - I was there and it was more that I felt than what I saw that convinced me. The nonuniformity of the effects is hard to explain by "illusion" (ie confusion as to what "level" is resulting in pseudo forces) and somewhat difficult to explain by the meteorite theory (unless the meteorite has a density approaching the density of a black hole). So, I'm looking for some help in explaining this phenomenon. The scientific community has known about this site since 1942 and supposedly (according to the people who own the site) there was an investigation around 1942 or later by some people at the U of Wisc. at Madison. If anyone out there knows of these sites and/or can explain it I'd appreciate it. If anyone at U of W at Madison is reading this the research was done by the geology dept. Given that Lake Delton is so close to the University I'd expect some of the academic/scientific community to know about this site. Can anyone out there glean some information on this site at Lake Delton regarding these anomalous gravitational effects... or have I been taken in by a guy selling "snake oil". Gary
Gloger.es@Xerox.ARPA (08/19/85)
Gary, You say that there is an apparently gravitational pull, "*significantly* non-uniform" from place to place on this platform, so much so that "one cannot walk a straight line." If so, you could easily collect at least this much evidence: At each of several points on the platform between which the pull varies, set up a weighted cord suspended from a simple tripod or other support. Take photographs of the whole set-up from several perspectives, showing the weights hanging in *significantly* non-uniform directions. Offer to show us the photographs. Until then, please excuse my not believing a word you say. Paul
davidl@tekig5.UUCP (David Levadie) (08/21/85)
------- There's another one of these anomalies, called the Oregon Vortex, down in Gold Hill here in Oregon. I've got some photographs taken there by a friend of two people of different heights, standing at either end of a board. In one photograph one of them appears taller than the other, and in the other, after they've exchanged places, they appear to be the same height. There is unquestionably something weird going on. Evidently there hasn't been much interest among members of the "scientific" community, although every variety of saucer-seer, psycho-nut, and other occultified weirdo has been down there hatching explanations. I was thinking, at one time, of borrowing a laser and trying to devise some means of tracking the beam through the anomaly, while observing it from outside (supposedly, the area has a definite circular boundary), but that was back when... Also, there's supposed to be another one up on Mount Shasta somewhere, but the aforementioned occultified weirdos claim there's EVERYTHING about Mount Shasta, so...
matt@oddjob.UUCP (Matt Crawford) (08/22/85)
People, these "phenomena" are deliberate *tricks* and you are either pulling our legs or being taken in yourself. At Knott's Berry Farm in Buena Park, Ca there is (or was ~15 years ago) a so-called Haunted Shack where all these illusions could be seen -- gravity not vertical, water running uphill, people's heights changing as they moved about a room. Please, give us none of this "disinterest of the established scientific community" incantation. Be at least as critical of the charlatans and hucksters as you are of the scientists. The exercise will be good for you. After all, there are many other groups of people in the world who are also trying to fool you with a fast patter and a slick image. _____________________________________________________ Matt University crawford@anl-mcs.arpa Crawford of Chicago ihnp4!oddjob!matt
throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) (08/22/85)
> There's another one of these anomalies, called the Oregon Vortex, [...] > In one photograph one of them appears taller than the other, and in the > other, after they've exchanged places, they appear to be the same > height. There is unquestionably something weird going on. Can you say "fun house"? I knew you could. The symptoms of the effect (tendency to "drift" to one side or another, disorientation or lack of balance), coupled with this photograph leads me to beleive that the platform is nowhere near true. It is relatively simple to make a platform that appears perfectly square, and yet is not (the optical illusion involved was explained in Scientific American a few years back, and is well known.) This confuses the be-jeezuz out of your sense of balance, since it is getting contradictory input (visual says "flat surface", but kinesthetic senses say "crooked as a three dollar bill"). I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level to the eye. As implied above, this effect is sometimes used in fun houses. These "gravitational anomalies" seem to be simply a subtler version of the same thing. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw
bob@islenet.UUCP (Bob Cunningham) (08/23/85)
Currently, instruments used in gravity surveys are sensitive to about one
part in 10^8. Gravity prospecting is commonly used as a reconnaissance
tool in oil exploration -- it's often cheaper than a seismic survey --
though it's usually employed as a secondary method for mineral exploration,
although recently it's become more popular for detailed follow-up of
magnetic and electromagnetic anomalies during integrated base-metal
surveys.
Even a quick survey (several neighborhood sites for reference + a few
measurements at the point of interest) would surely detect objectively any
thing like what you've observed. Still, it wouldn't be cheap. Several
days (minimum) of a well-trained crew of several people. (Contact any oil
company for details and a cost estimate :-). Having well-calibrated
instruments is a must.
On the other hand, if the anomaly (anomalies?) are as pronounced as you
suspect, they're probably detectable using a simple pendulum (accurately
measuring period, using the total number of cycles over a period of several
hours), or some form of torsion balance. The precision would be much less
than that of modern gravity meters, but probably sufficient to detect (or
fail to) major changes in the gravity field up by the lake. The time,
effort and expertise involved would be roughly equivalent to a good high
school level science fair project.
--
Bob Cunningham {dual|vortex|ihnp4}!islenet!bob
Hawaii Institute of Geophysicscontrol@almsa-1 (William Martin) (08/26/85)
In article <155@rtp47.UUCP> throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > >I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the >platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would >expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, >and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level >to the eye. > If the owners forbade instrumented observation, one possible test would be to take an experienced blind person on the platform. There would be no interference from optical effects, and he/she could probably detect tilts or irregularities in the construction. Just an idea... Will
john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) (08/29/85)
> In article <155@rtp47.UUCP> throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > > > >I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the > >platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would > >expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, > >and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level > >to the eye. > > > If the owners forbade instrumented observation, one possible test would... It seems to me that if the owners forbade instrumented observation, one has the answer in hand already... And to anyone who wants to argue that there are all kinds of other reasons why that might be (true), I wish to sell you a box containing 1 pound of 24K gold, on the condition that you not open the box until I reach Switzerland. Small, unmarked, publically viewable US bills only, please... Do you trust me? -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA You have violated Robots Rules of Order, and will be asked to leave The Future!
hardie@sask.UUCP (Peter Hardie ) (08/31/85)
There is a similar weird "gravitational" effect somewhere in Scotland (it's been years and years and I can't remember where) that is called a magnetic hill. If you drive 'downhill', turn around and put the car in neutral, it will then roll back 'uphill'. As with all the other gravitational or magnetic effects mentioned it is actually a visual effect that makes the hill *look* as if it is sloping 'up' when in fact it slopes 'down'. I am sure that the same kind of illusion is at work at the one in Wisconsin. I agree with Wayne Throop that if you were permitted to measure the platform properly you'd soon find some anomolies in it. Perhaps next time you are there you should try accidently dropping a marble or two on the floor to see which way they roll. It isn't so easy to confuse a marble as to what constitutes 'downhill'. Marbles are also not impressed with the fact scientists have not bothered themselves with the place. Some people would prefer to believe that there is some gravitational or magnetic anomoly rather than accept that their eyes are being fooled by a cleverly constructed illusion. Pete ihnp4!sask!hardie
msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (08/31/85)
Wayne Throop (throopw@rtp47.UUCP) writes: > I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the > platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would > expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, > and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level > to the eye. Wayne is surely correct, but his experimental design is faulty. Say the operators of the place are claiming that their platform is horizontal but due to a gravity anomaly it seems to be tilted 5 degrees. And say that a carpenter's level gives a reading that shows that it is tilted 5 degrees. Well, what drives a carpenter's level? Gravity! So this does NOT disprove the claim. The simplest ways that come to my mind are a gyroscope and astronomical observations (measure the sun's position assuming the floor is level, and again assuming your level is level; compare with outside observations at the same time, or computed position). Of course, if they are claiming that something is rectangular when it isn't, THAT's easy to disprove. And optical illusions where two people seem to change heights when they change positions, particularly in photographs where you don't get binocular depth cues, are well known. The operators are probably exploiting this as well as non-level surfaces; it doesn't do to assume one trick covers all. Mark Brader
hes@ecsvax.UUCP (Henry Schaffer) (09/01/85)
> There is a similar weird "gravitational" effect somewhere in Scotland (it's > been years and years and I can't remember where) that is called a magnetic > hill. If you drive 'downhill', turn around and put the car in neutral, > it will then roll back 'uphill'. > Pete > ihnp4!sask!hardie There is a similar place in Florida - about 30-40 mi. south of Orlando. I think it is near Lake Wales, near some kind of tower. I stopped my car and it rolled "uphill". It was not a dramatic slope - but to the eyes the car was clearly rolling uphill. --henry schaffer
bradford@AMSAA.ARPA (09/03/85)
From: Cymru am Byth! <bradford@AMSAA.ARPA> <> >I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the <> >platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would <> >expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, <> >and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level <> >to the eye. <> > <> If the owners forbade instrumented observation, one possible test would... < <It seems to me that if the owners forbade instrumented observation, one has <the answer in hand already... Of course the owners would not mind you using a carpenter's level -- if it showed any "tilt", that must also have been caused by the gravitational anomoly!!! PJB "So you think being drunk feels good -- tell that to a glass of water!"
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (09/06/85)
> From: Cymru am Byth! <bradford@AMSAA.ARPA> > > > <> >I expect (if the owners would allow you to do it), simply measuring the > <> >platform with a tape measure and (perhaps) a carpenter's level would > <> >expose the trickery. It is probably "off level" by a couple of degrees, > <> >and one side is a little longer than the other to make it appear level > <> >to the eye. > <> > > <> If the owners forbade instrumented observation, one possible test would... > < > <It seems to me that if the owners forbade instrumented observation, one has > <the answer in hand already... > > Of course the owners would not mind you using a > carpenter's level -- if it showed any "tilt", that must > also have been caused by the gravitational anomoly!!! > Would they mind if I came in with a thodolite and measured star positions relative to the local gravitational vector? That would pin it down easily enough. -- Glend. I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hot. Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call them? -- Henry IV Pt. I, III, i, 53 Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (UUCP) bill@astro.UTEXAS.EDU. (Internet)
chongo@nsc.UUCP (Landon Noll) (09/13/85)
In article <668@utastro.UUCP> bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) writes: >Would they mind if I came in with a thodolite and measured star positions >relative to the local gravitational vector? That would pin it down easily >enough. No, they would not mind. However they would claim that the local grav is sooooo strong... (how string is it?!?) it is sooo strong that the light from the stars would be bent to the point where your measurements would be wrong. :-} chongo <*pheep*> /\oo/\
mwg@petrus.UUCP (Mark Garrett) (09/16/85)
++ > > There is a similar weird "gravitational" effect somewhere in Scotland > > been years and years and I can't remember where) that is called a magnetic > > hill. If you drive 'downhill', turn around and put the car in neutral, > > it will then roll back 'uphill'. > > Pete > > ihnp4!sask!hardie > There is a similar place in Florida - about 30-40 mi. south of > Orlando. I think it is near Lake Wales, near some kind of tower. > I stopped my car and it rolled "uphill". It was not a dramatic > slope - but to the eyes the car was clearly rolling uphill. > --henry schaffer The one in Florida is called "Spook Hill", outside of Lake Wales, near Bock Tower. As you approach the bottom of the hill, you will invariably stop part-way up the slope, thinking you are on the bottom, then roll back down. When you go up the other side, you can clearly see the mistake the next car is making. The illusion is purely optical. -Mark