ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (05/26/85)
I've been in kind of a Diplomacy mood lately and I was messing around the Net so I decided to raise this question. What are the BEST ways to start off with the various countries. Seeing as how I posted this, I'll start. In the Grams game I'm playing France, a country I had little experience playing as, but after looking at the scenario closely, France is one of the few countries that can GUARANTEE itself one build at least and most likely two. My orders were as follows: Piece Location Order Destination ------------------------------------------------------ A Marseille -> Burgundy A Paris -> Gascony F Brest -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean While one major problem to this discussion will be the dificulty of taking the moves outside the context of actual diplomacy, some higher level analysis can be made. My reasoning was as follows: Marseille moves to Burgundy to avoid a German threat (Munich to Burgundy is to deadly to be tolerated). If it succeeds than Germany might be upset, but Belgium is within reach and Marseille can simply move back to cover Italian treachery. If it does bounce, then Marseille can either sit still and cover Italian conniving or move to Spain or back up to Burgundy in the Fall. Paris to Gascony accomplishes the taking of Spain in the Fall unless England makes a move into the channel. If needed, the Parisian army can simply move to Brest, freeing the navy to pick up either Portugal or Spain. The navy moving into the Mid-Atlantic is the guaranteed build. It can retreat to cover Brest thus leaving the army to pick up Spain, but either case, no quantity of treachery can keep France from this one build. The only question is if France does get the two builds, what should be done with the two pieces that have moved them selves almost off the map. The army at Spain can be back in play quickly by a move into Marseille the next spring and the fleet can first move back into the Mid-Atlantic and from there, the world. I'd be interested in seeing what some people think about an Italian first move. Personally, if you can in any way convince AH that you are not going to be mean, Venie to Tyrolia and Rome to Venice is pretty devastating. The fleet at Naples goes to get Tunis and AH has to either guess right or give up a build (depending on the first move). Anyhow, let's here from some people and see if we can derive the perfect beginning to World War I. Rick Frey (... ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415)
jrrt@mtuxo.UUCP (r.mitchell) (05/28/85)
> I've been in kind of a Diplomacy mood lately and I was messing around > the Net so I decided to raise this question. What are the BEST ways to > start off with the various countries. Avalon Hill has a great booklet, "The Gamer's Guide to DIPLOMACY" which includes a Power-by-Power discussion of the major opening moves. France, for instance, has essentially four alternatives: General, anti-English, anti-Italian, and anti-German. The set of moves posted in the base article was the anti-Italian opening, and the booklet comments: "This sequence puts the defensive burden on A Mar...A Mar-Bur is just in case the Germans try a stab. Perhaps Belgium can be picked up, too. In either case, Marseilles is covered. This opening can be used in alliance with England, where a strong push into the Mediterranean is desired, and Germany is neutral." > > I'd be interested in seeing what some people think about an Italian > first move. The booklet recommends the "Lepanto Opening," which is A Ven-Trl, A Rom-Apu, F Nap-Ion. This develops into an attack on Turkey: Fall 1901: A Apu-Tun F Ion C A Apu-Tun <Build F Nap> Spring 1902: F Ion-Eas F Nap-Ion A Tun H Fall 1902: A Tun-Syr F Ion & F Eas C A Tun-Syr These moves require an alliance with Austria-Hungary. If you wish to attack the Dual Monarchy, in Spring 1901, order A Rom-Ven. I really value this booklet. It covers basic strategy, negotiation concepts, Power-by-Power evaluation, tricks-of-the-trade, Postal DIPLOMACY, Variants, Clubs and Tournaments, and more. I think the booklet is as important to me as the rules themselves. Rob "Trust Me!" Mitchell {ihnp4,allegra}!mtuxo!jrrt
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (05/29/85)
[Before I launch into this, let me interject a suggestion. Since we have (arbitrarily) picked France as a starting point, how about if we work on that for a while before moving on to the other countries -- R.S.] > A Marseille -> Burgundy > A Paris -> Gascony > F Brest -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean I like the move to Gas; the ability to cover all 3 home centers with a single unit, and still be able to get Spa is important. However, lately I've started to adopt the go-for-broke attitude in openings. Decide who you can trust (flip a coin if need be) and trust him 100%. This is classic game theory, but I'll leave that to the mathematicians. You usualy have 3 possible targets; you may not know which of them you are going after, but at least narrow it down to 2 of the 3. I like the following: FBre-Mao, APar-Gas, AMar-Spa. This puts a lot of trust in Germany, but even if Germany moves to Bur, I still have a 50% chance of picking whether to cover Mar or Par the fall, and I still get 2 builds. If I decide to go after Italy (and this is basicly an anti-Italian opening) I do FMao-Wes, ASpa-Por, AGas-Spa and build FMar & FBre. It is tough going throught the Med, but if you are going to go for Italy, this is the way to do it (yes Chris, I did have this in mind). Of course, help from Austria (or Turkey) is essential, at least for the first year or so. Of course, the alternative is AMar-Pie, FBre-Mao, APar-Gas in the Spring. If I get bounced in Pie, I want to make sure that Mar is open in the Winter so I can build FMar. Thus I follow with AMar-Spa, ASpa-Por, FMao-Wes. If I got into Pie in the Spring, I do FMao-Spa(sc), ASpa-Por, APie-Ven/Tus. If getting bounced in Wes is likely, FMao-Naf is always a possibility. In a way, this opening is inferior to the former because AMar-Pie is a dead give-away of your intentions. If I decide to go after England, I could try FMao-Iri or FMao-Eng along with ASpa-Por, AGas-Spa, building 2 fleets again. This is a bit awkward (as recently proven) so if you know you are moving against England from the start, you have lots better openings. If I decide to stab Germany (assuming he hasn't attacked me first, in which case it is honest defense) I can do AGas-Bur, FMao-Por, ASpa-Hold. -- allegra!phri!roy (Roy Smith) System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (05/30/85)
> Avalon Hill has a great booklet, "The Gamer's Guide to DIPLOMACY" which > includes a Power-by-Power discussion of the major opening moves. > > I really value this booklet. It covers basic strategy, negotiation > concepts, Power-by-Power evaluation, tricks-of-the-trade, Postal DIPLOMACY, > Variants, Clubs and Tournaments, and more. I think the booklet is as > important to me as the rules themselves. The booklet, while of some value, is definitely limited in strategic scope. It frankly concerns itself with strategic evaluation PRESUMING the establishment of a strong alliance with another power. For those of us who frequently reevaluate the utility of ALL present and potential alliances (close in spirit, but not in ends to what the booklet refers to as a "balance-of-power" player), this World View is most cramped... David Rubin
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (05/30/85)
I can't resist anymore.
As France, I favor
F Bre -> Mid
A Par -> Bur
A Mar S A Par -> Bur
for Spring 1901, and here's why:
(1) France's most important military goal in 1901 is to gain
at least two builds.
(2) No move guarantees two builds.
(3) Some moves guarantee two builds if the correct neighbor is
trusted.
(4) This move guarantees two builds if England can be trusted
for 1901.
(5) England cannot enter the English Channel without risking
Norway, an otherwise sure build; Germany risks less in
moving to Burgundy, and Italy risks nothing in moving to
Piedmont. For Spring 1901, lacking strong contrary
evidence, trust England the most and Italy the least.
(6) If England does stab, the defense is manageable, and far
easier than if you falsely trust (and are stabbed by)
Germany or Italy.
(7) This move has as good a shot for three centers as any.
(8) An experienced German player will not be unduly upset;
any German player can do nothing about it in Fall 1901, by
which time you will have had ample opportunity to make
clear your lack of desire for Munich. If you wish to.
I've played France about half a dozen times in my diplomatic career.
I think I've used this move all but once (when I had strong reason to
believe Germany was more reliable than England). In all the games
I've played, I'd guess England orders F Lon -> Eng about 10% of the
time, Germany orders A Mun -> Bur about 20% of the time, and Italy
orders A Ven -> Pie about 60% of the time.
David Rubin
{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!davidhardlj@drutx.UUCP (hardouinLJ) (06/04/85)
> A Par -> Bre > A Mar -> Bur > F Bre -> Mid Can anyone explain Par->Bre to me? In the ten diplomacy games I have played I have never seen this manuever before. But back to the subject at hand, for France I like the opening: F Bre-Mid A Mar-Gas A Par-Bur As the French commander, the only thing that would upset me on the first turn of the game is Germany moving into Burgundy. My hope is to take Spain and Portugal and use Burgundy to cover Marsailles should the spaghetti eaters get any bright ideas. For England, I like: F Edi-Nwg F Lon-Nth A Liv-Edi This move allows the most flexibility without stepping on anyone's (namely France's) toes. Having the army in Edinburgh allows it to be convoyed by either fleet to Norway. Should France move Brest to Mid-Atlantic, I would much prefer to take Norway with the fleet in the Norwegian, however, and keep the army at home for protection. In the last game I played, France moved Bre-Mid in the Spring, and Mid-Irish Sea in the Fall 1901 while I convoyed the army to Norway. Talk about nightmares come to life (right Roy). Luckily I got the build for Norway and was able to stave off the attack. Larry Hardouin ihnp4!drutx!hardlj
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (06/05/85)
> For England, I like: > F Edi-Nwg > F Lon-Nth > A Liv-Edi I guess this means that England is now open to discussion. I agree that the listed move is the most efficient way of projecting English power to the Continent. However, unless you have reason to believe that Denmark or Belgium will be available (having reached an appropriate agreement with either France or Germany), you will have nothing better to do than to have the North Sea fleet sit, so why not commit it under such circumstances to be your convoying fleet, and guard against a French stab by ordering A Lvp -> Yor? Moreover, even if France is your trusted partner, finding it necessary to defend yourself from a French stab can greatly reassure your other neighbors of your good intentions. If you order A Lvp -> Yor, you don't appear to be in cahoots with Paris. If you order A Lvp -> Edi, Russia and Germany tend to assume their chances of being on your receiving end have risen from 33% to 50%.... David Rubin {allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david
ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (06/08/85)
In article <2936@drutx.UUCP>, hardlj@drutx.UUCP (hardouinLJ) writes: > > A Par -> Bre > > A Mar -> Bur > > F Bre -> Mid > Can anyone explain Par->Bre to me? In the ten diplomacy games > I have played I have never seen this manuever before. > But back to the subject at hand, for France I like the opening: > I can explain it. Jim Grams posted the move wrong. Paris went to Gascony, and the other moves are listed correctly. As it turned out, no one tried to double-cross and Germany supported me into Belgium so France (me) picked up three builds. > F Bre-Mid > A Mar-Gas > A Par-Bur > As the French commander, the only thing that would upset me > on the first turn of the game is Germany moving into Burgundy. > My hope is to take Spain and Portugal and use Burgundy to > cover Marsailles should the spaghetti eaters get any bright ideas. > Then why not have Marseille sit and support Paris into Burgundy? It was suggested by someone else, but it works great. If the spaghettie eaters don't get uppity, then you've got the army at Spain, which is where you'd like to have it end up, and the fleet can move to Portugal to pick up that freebie. > For England, I like: > F Edi-Nwg > F Lon-Nth > A Liv-Edi > This move allows the most flexibility without stepping on anyone's > (namely France's) toes. Having the army in Edinburgh allows it to > be convoyed by either fleet to Norway. > I don't see why everyone is so worried about a French stab. It works out too nicely to just let England get Norway and to go after the two supply centers yourself. Germany, however, must be prevented from making it into Burgundy so either moving in intending to bounce or supporting one's self in is the cool good strategy. About England. The second move is the crucial one. The best strategy is to get the army of of England and in at Norway. The fleet in the Norwegian can move into the Barents (is that right, I don't have a map here) and then Russia has to work to keep either St. Petersbur or Sweden depending on what Germany starts to do. England needs to be able to trust France to enable her to make the big Northward plunge, and with a little German help, Russia can be in big trouble up north. Rick Frey (France in the "Grams" diplomacy game)