[ont.uucp] Could someone explain this for me?

clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) (11/09/89)

This is driving me nuts.  I've been trying to understand this crap for
years, but I've never been able to get someone who really understands
this to either explain it, or tell me *where* I can RTFM.  I'm running
smail 2.5 and pathalias 9 with the current maps *without* any
path file stripping (eg: Peter Honeyman's egrep).

On occasion, I've seen references to the ".on.ca" domain float by.
So, I try sending mail to "evan@telly.on.ca".  These are our path
entries:

>.telly.on.ca	yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!%s	195
>telly	telly!%s	195
>telly.on.ca	yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!telly.on.ca!%s	195

(We have a direct connect to telly).

H'm, smail 2.5 expands that out to:

    yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!evan

Well, it would be nice if it expanded simply to "telly!evan", but
it doesn't.  Guess we can live with that.  I think that "telly!telly.on.ca!evan"
would work too, but never mind.  Bitnet seems a little silly,
but okay.  Surely there's a better route from yunexus to yorkvm1.bitnet
than by utai, but okay.  But, unless Evan has made special arrangements 
with yorkvm1.bitnet, a userid of "evan" will bounce (and most probably
end up in the great bitbucket in the sky).

What's the problem?
	- Should smail be looking for ".telly.on.ca" first?
	  If not, I could fix that easily enough.
	- Should we be deleting certain patterns from the pathalias output?
	- Is there something wrong with telly's map entry?
	- Is there something wrong at York?
	- Is there something wrong with me?  (Naw, don't answer that!)
	- Is this a question that should never be asked?
	- Are .ca and .on.ca bogus?  From the point of view of the UUCP
	  maps they appear to be simply an exercise in inventing new
	  and non-functional naming.  They certainly don't seem to work 
	  anywhere as well as the ol' "telly!....".  Though,
	  of course from other networks they are pretty important.

I thought domains were supposed to make the maps smaller!
-- 
He's a consultant:             | Chris Lewis, Elegant Communications Inc.
Lend him your watch            | UUCP {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!eci386!clewis
and he'll tell you the time.   | Moderator of the Ferret mailing list.
   Don Munroe, Cosmic Commander|

rayan@cs.toronto.edu (Rayan Zachariassen) (11/10/89)

clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) writes:

>H'm, smail 2.5 expands that out to:

>    yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!evan

This is a bug in smail2.5.  I don't have the fix.  People run into this
bug all the time and few think to blame smail.


I don't know why the utai!yorkvm1.bitnet route is being used, it doesn't
make sense with the map data I put out, however I will check it for the
upcoming issue.

>	- Are .ca and .on.ca bogus?  From the point of view of the UUCP
>	  maps they appear to be simply an exercise in inventing new
>	  and non-functional naming.  They certainly don't seem to work 
>	  anywhere as well as the ol' "telly!....".  Though,
>	  of course from other networks they are pretty important.

>I thought domains were supposed to make the maps smaller!

They do (for large sites) but for every progress there is regress
(in this case, broken software)

dan@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Dan Trottier) (11/10/89)

In article <89Nov9.144803est.2778@neat.cs.toronto.edu> rayan@cs.toronto.edu (Rayan Zachariassen) writes:
>clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) writes:
>
>>H'm, smail 2.5 expands that out to:
>
>>    yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!evan
>
>This is a bug in smail2.5.  I don't have the fix.  People run into this
>bug all the time and few think to blame smail.

It is a bug an I have a fix if anyone is interested. The solution is to
first check host.sub.domain before checking .host.sub.domain. We've run
for about a 8 months with this change and everything seems to work fine.

I could post a patch to this group if enough people are interested.

-- 
Dan Trottier                                       dan@maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA
Dept of Computer Science                       ...!uunet!utai!utgpu!maccs!dan
McMaster University                                      (416) 525-9140 x3444

bdb@becker.UUCP (Bruce Becker) (11/11/89)

In article <255AD774.21064@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> dan@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Dan Trottier) writes:
|In article <89Nov9.144803est.2778@neat.cs.toronto.edu> rayan@cs.toronto.edu (Rayan Zachariassen) writes:
|>clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) writes:
|>
|>>H'm, smail 2.5 expands that out to:
|>
|>>    yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!evan
|>
|>This is a bug in smail2.5.  I don't have the fix.  People run into this
|>bug all the time and few think to blame smail.
|
|It is a bug an I have a fix if anyone is interested. The solution is to
|first check host.sub.domain before checking .host.sub.domain. We've run
|for about a 8 months with this change and everything seems to work fine.
|
|I could post a patch to this group if enough people are interested.

	Sure, go ahead & post it.

	If you don't, however, please
	send me a copy.

-- 
  .::.	 Bruce Becker	Toronto, Ont.
w \@@/	 Internet: bdb@becker.UUCP, bruce@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
 `/c/-e	 BitNet:   BECKER@HUMBER.BITNET
_/  \_	 Your Agrarian Distress Card - Don't heave loam without it...

clewis@ecicrl.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (11/16/89)

In article <89Nov9.144803est.2778@neat.cs.toronto.edu> rayan@cs.toronto.edu (Rayan Zachariassen) writes:
>clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) writes:

>>H'm, smail 2.5 expands that out to:

>>    yunexus!utai!yorkvm1.bitnet!evan

>This is a bug in smail2.5.  I don't have the fix.  People run into this
>bug all the time and few think to blame smail.

I sort of figured it was, but I was hoping for a pronouncement from
someone who knows as much about it as you do.

Thanks Rayan.  I'll try out one of the patches and let people know
what happens.

>>	- Are .ca and .on.ca bogus?  From the point of view of the UUCP
>>	  maps they appear to be simply an exercise in inventing new
>>	  and non-functional naming.  They certainly don't seem to work 
>>	  anywhere as well as the ol' "telly!....".  Though,
>>	  of course from other networks they are pretty important.

Does the fact that you left this in without comment is a comment in
itself? ;-)  Should I have not commented on the commentless nature of
this comment?  Never mind.
-- 
Chris Lewis, Elegant Communications Inc.
UUCP: {uunet!mnetor, utcsri!utzoo, uunet!attcan!lsuc, yunexus}!ecicrl!clewis
Moderator of the Ferret Mailing List (ferret-request@eci386)
Phone: (416)-294-9253

lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) (11/20/89)

In article <735@ecicrl.UUCP> clewis@ecicrl.UUCP (Chris Lewis) writes:
>> [Rayan left undeleted:]
>>>	- Are .ca and .on.ca bogus?  From the point of view of the UUCP
>>>	  maps they appear to be simply an exercise in inventing new
>>>	  and non-functional naming.  They certainly don't seem to work 
>>>	  anywhere as well as the ol' "telly!....".  Though,
>>>	  of course from other networks they are pretty important.

My [mis-]understanding of North American geography has been throwin into
turmoil.  Until I visited Canda, I had thought that lots of places I had
known only through news and mail were in the States, since they were so
clearly marked with CA, the state abbreviation for California.

Now I doscover that dome of the Californian places are really in Canada.
This is most confusing, as I am fairly sure that Canada and California,
whilst lexicographically proximate, are geographically remote.

What am I missing?  Why is Canada CA and not CAN, and why CAN't CAlifornia
be CA?

Lee
-- 
Liam R. Quin, Unixsys (UK) Ltd [note: not an employee of "sq" - a visitor!]
lee@sq.com (Whilst visiting Canada from England)
lee@anduk.co.uk (Upon my return to England at Christmas)

henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (11/20/89)

In article <1989Nov19.202624.15502@sq.sq.com> lee@sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) writes:
>What am I missing?  Why is Canada CA and not CAN...?

It boils down to "stupidity".  The problem is that there is an ISO
standard for two-character country codes, and some clot conceived the
idea of using codes (intended for use by machines) as names (intended
for use by humans) when the issue of naming national domains came up.
When the .ca domain first got registered, some of us said this was a
stupid idea, and pointed out the Canada/California problem, and were
ignored.

It's the same mentality that says that you ought to write "891119230823"
instead of "Sun Nov 19 18:08:23 EST 1989" because the former is an ISO
standard and easier for computers to understand.

I'm really very glad that U of T is toronto.edu; everybody knows what
*that* means.  (It's also utoronto.ca, but so many mailers choke on that
that it's simpler to just ignore it.)
-- 
A bit of tolerance is worth a  |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
megabyte of flaming.           | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu

egisin@mks.com (Eric Gisin) (11/21/89)

In article <1989Nov19.202624.15502@sq.sq.com>, lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) writes:
> What am I missing?  Why is Canada CA and not CAN, and why CAN't CAlifornia
> be CA?

Or why can't Califoria be CL? Canadians aren't confused by CA,
Americans are. Why should we change instead of them?

Anyone who has been reading news for a while should realise
that two character top-level domains are country codes, not states.
OZ, UK, FR aren't states, and account for several percent of addresses.

lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) (11/25/89)

Thanks to all those who pointed out that CA is ISO-speak for Canada.
It's about as obvious as using FR would be for Ireland if you ask me,
but they didn't.

In article <1989Nov21.011916.8115@mks.com> egisin@mks.com (Eric Gisin) writes:
>[...] two character top-level domains are country codes, not states.
>OZ, UK, FR aren't states, and account for several percent of addresses.

Well, we could start having a domain for each county.  I am not
sure if we should have Y1, Y2 and Y3 for the Yorkshire Ridings,
however, and two character abbreviations might be hard.
Hmmm.
	unixsys.co.la  (we are in Lancashire)
would be great for Californians....  :-)

Lee
-- 
Liam R. Quin, Unixsys (UK) Ltd [note: not an employee of "sq" - a visitor!]
lee@sq.com (Whilst visiting Canada from England)
Unix Wizard -- someone who wears a yellow T-shirt.

andy@mks.com (Andy Toy) (11/26/89)

In article <1989Nov25.083642.6625@sq.sq.com> lee@sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) writes:
>	unixsys.co.la  (we are in Lancashire)

You must mean unixsys.co.la.uk

>would be great for Californians....  :-)

That would be unixsys.co.la.ca.us  :-)
-- 
Andy Toy, Mortice Kern Systems Inc.,       Internet: andy@mks.com
  35 King Street North, Waterloo,       UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!andy
      Ontario, CANADA N2J 2W9      Phone: 519/884-2251  FAX: 519/884-8861