jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) (02/10/85)
The wine net has been entirely too dormant. I would like to discuss an
attribute of wine not often discussed in the wine media: headache generation.
I have a disposition toward headaches normally, and so I think I have a
low threshold for headaches caused by wines. The pattern of headache generation
is clear and I think understandable from the winemaking point of view.
Since the basic subject is that of hangovers, we know what the
physiological cause for those are: the accumulation of high molecular-weight
alcohols, ketones and esters in the teeny blood vessels in the brain. These
compounds have been given the unfortunate term fusel oils. That sounds like
something that might wash up on a beach in Santa Barbara or Provence. It
remains that there are specific wines that generate headaches for me. Generally
they are very low-cost reds and cheap or Charmat-process sparkling wines. It's
ironic that the cheap ones do it. I can't get away with bargains. I have a
suggestion as to why this occurs, and would be interested in other ideas.
In visiting wineries in the Northwest and in California, I notice that
those whose wines are consistently superior over many years (Beaulieu
Vineyards, Robert Mondavi, Domaine Chandon, Sterling Vineyards, Chateau Ste.
Michelle, and uncounted boutique wineries) take great care in the culturing and
maintenance of their yeast cultures. The great wineries of the Napa Valley
whose wines have set a pattern or "style" over the decades are very careful
indeed with their yeast cultures. We know that "wild" yeasts that creep in to
our musts when we make wine at home can create 'off' flavors and these can be
identified in egregiously bad batches as ketones and esters (e.g. ethyl
acetate). In commercial wineries and smart home wineries, all "wild" yeasts are
killed off in the beginning must through the use of sulfur dioxide in amounts
greater than 120 ppm. Once sterilized, the must is then innoculated with a
pure, often proprietary, yeast culture to produce a predictable result. If this
procedure is followed, then the quality of the resulting wine will be
determined by the quality of the grapes used, and through blending the musts
from various vineyards, a style can be maintained.
So, it's my guess that the wines that tend to be headache-generating (I'm
sure there's a neat latin word for that, maybe poenogenic?) are made with
uncontrolled yeast cultures or even with the yeast cells that cover the grape
when it's picked. The case with sparkling wines is more serious because 1.) it
is comsumed in larger quantities (speaking for myself) and 2.) the secondary
fermentation and aging over the yeast cells can be as long as two years. The
secondary fermentation takes place under stringent conditions which might favor
the kinetics of 'fusel oils'.
So it is my guess that strict control over yeast strain purity is the key
to non-headache generating wines. It also makes for better wines.
Jere M. Marrs
Tektronix, Inc.
Beaverton, Oregon
tektronix!tekgvs!jeremsuki@reed.UUCP (Monica Nosek) (02/11/85)
In article <1043@tekgvs.UUCP> jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) writes: > > So it is my guess that strict control over yeast strain purity is the key >to non-headache generating wines. It also makes for better wines. > > Jere M. Marrs > Tektronix, Inc. > Beaverton, Oregon > tektronix!tekgvs!jerem I find that the sweeter the wine, the worse the headache the next day. Answers, anyone? -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Monica Nosek Reed College, Portland, OR "Double it!"
mgh@hou5h.UUCP (Marcus Hand) (02/11/85)
Yes, I too have noticed a propensity for certain wines to give headaches. For me, it seems to be cheap whites from southern and eastern europe and california, and what I like to call "hot" reds from spain, algeria and california. (By hot I mean wines made from grapes grown in hot regions. I find the Rioja region of spain is typical, sometimes Zinfandels, and particularly a certain paul masson generic dry red. The wines have a heavy almost musty taste, and feel slightly oily. There are other intangible characteristics which I can't describe without a glass in my hand! Finally, the heavier Roussillons from southern france/pyrenee area also can have this characteristic). Strangely, the Italian reds don't seem to share this quality -- I know not why. There must be as you suggest some fermentation effect -- though what it is I don't know. I would dearly love to find out since I can drink cheap red plonk by the bucketful in one cafe, yet in another, two glasses of the heavy stuff and my mouth is like a turkish wrestlers jock strap the next morning. (Not two mention having the Chicago Symphany orchestra rehearsing Mahler's 10th inside my head) But I can live with that. What really eats my curiosity is this -- "Why do US beers and some european lagers (eg Heineken) give me vicious headaches and upset stomaches if I drink any more than three?" (and sometimnes it can be two). Whereas my tollerance of Molson is about four bottles, of guinness is around 5-6 pints (before headaches, not before getting drunk) and of most English beers is also around 5-6 pints. It appears to be nothing to do with strength either alcoholic or "body" -- it must be either something to do with the fermentation process (bottom brewed versus top brewed?) or some of the ingredients that go into these beers. Anyone know of any distinguishing ingredients? A friend suggested it might be rice -- any rice in Heineken or Beck's ? Is there less rice in Molson than Budweiser or Miller Light? (Yes, lights are just as bad as regular beers). I don't think it can be the detergent that is used for preserving the beer's head because Beck's does it to me and that comes from Germany where they have that purity law (Only natural ingredients are permitted in beer -- hence all the small breweries) Cheers, Marcus Hand.
jerryp@tektools.UUCP (Jerry Peek) (02/11/85)
In article <1043@tekgvs.UUCP> jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) writes: > > I would like to discuss an > attribute of wine not often discussed in the wine media: headache generation. > ... there are specific wines that generate headaches for me. Generally > they are very low-cost reds and cheap or Charmat-process sparkling wines. I've noticed the same thing. I can drink a glass or two of cheap wines (red *or* white) and get quite a headache, but drinking better wines doesn't bother me. I've heard -- several places, including tours of wineries -- that chemicals and preservatives are what makes the headaches. One winery employee (Amity Vineyards, Oregon) had a couple of interesting points: - People who buy cheap jug wines at the supermarket won't drink the whole bottle in a night. They expect to open the bottle again next week or next month, and not have vinegar. Big wineries know this, and add preservatives to their jug wines. If they didn't, uninformed consumers (used to Wonder Bread that stays "fresh" for a week, etc.) would assume it was a bad brand of wine and buy someone else's. - He talked about a jug wine -- full of preservatives -- that they (or someone) froze, then boiled, then compared to the stuff straight from the bottle in a blind tasting. The tasters couldn't tell the difference! If preservatives really *are* used in wine, I'd like to see that mentioned on the label. It shouldn't hurt business on the cheap wines -- bread manufacturers list all that garbage on their labels, and people who don't care still buy the bread. It might make winemakers think twice before adding preservatives, too. --Jerry Peek, Tektronix, Inc. US Mail: MS 76-036, P.O. Box 500, Beaverton, OR 97077 uucp: {allegra,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,ucbvax}!tektronix!tektools!jerryp CS,ARPAnet: jerryp%tektools@tektronix.csnet Phone: 503/627-1603
mike@amdcad.UUCP (Mike Parker) (02/12/85)
> > The wine net has been entirely too dormant. I would like > to discuss an attribute of wine not often discussed in the wine > media: headache generation. > > Since the basic subject is that of hangovers, we > know what the physiological cause for those are: the accumulation > of high molecular-weight alcohols, ketones and esters in the teeny > blood vessels in the brain. These compounds have been given the > unfortunate term fusel oils. That sounds like > > Jere M. Marrs > Tektronix, Inc. > Beaverton, Oregon > tektronix!tekgvs!jerem We all know what? You're way ahead of me Jere. I'm very interested in this discussion, how about starting at the beginning and maybe including net.med, too.? Personally, I am much more bothered by dehydration. After a bottle of Cab. with dinner I wake up at 3 A.M. *bone dry*. This causes both a dry throat and mouth and headaches. It's not the alchohol, I've no such problem with beer, liquor, white wines, or less dry reds. It's Cabs and dry Zin's. Anybody out there care to explain. Mike @ AMDCAD
betsy@dartvax.UUCP (Betsy Hanes Perry) (02/12/85)
> > The wine net has been entirely too dormant. I would like to discuss an > attribute of wine not often discussed in the wine media: headache generation. > > I have a disposition toward headaches normally, and so I think I have a > low threshold for headaches caused by wines. The pattern of headache generation > is clear and I think understandable from the winemaking point of view. (discussion of fusel oils and wild yeasts deleted) > > Jere M. Marrs > Tektronix, Inc. > Beaverton, Oregon > tektronix!tekgvs!jerem I wish the solution were as simple as "don't buy cheap reds". I'm prone to migraines; after some elaborate dental work, I'm down to one or two a year. However, I have one sure way to bring one on: drink Beaujolais with a lamb dinner. Lamb alone is fine, as is Beaujolais alone, but the combination sends me stumbling blindly out of restaurants every time. I hear the combination is serendipitously synergistic; I'll never know. Cheap reds per se don't bother me; our house plonk is Carlo Rossi Burgundy, which I drink with no ill effects. Egri Bikaver doesn't bother me, either. (Egri Bikaver is a wonderful wine for meals that fight back like cassoulet, goulash, and serious stews. Not subtle, but able to hold its own.) It could be worse; I could be allergic to Gewurztraminer! -- Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay
lazeldes@wlcrjs.UUCP (Leah A Zeldes) (02/13/85)
In article <1043@tekgvs.UUCP> jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) writes: > > I would like to discuss an attribute of wine not often discussed >in the wine media: headache generation. > ...there are specific wines that generate headaches for me. Generally >they are very low-cost reds and cheap or Charmat-process sparkling wines. Many people are allergic to the tannic acid in red wines. -- Leah A Zeldes ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!lazeldes
darrow@iuvax.UUCP (02/15/85)
Regarding the German beer natural ingredients law, it applies to those
beers that are sold in Germany. It does not apply to beers made in Germany
and exported (yes, there is a difference). Hence, it may indeed be a
problem of preservatives or other additives supplied to the beer...
Americans like their beer ice cold whereas such is not usually the case
elsewhere. This chilling causes problems for the genuine German beers, and
produces protein precipitates and cloudy brews... One domestic brand that
I've heard of giving a health problem to the consumer (a friend of a friend
of a....) is Pabst Blue Ribbon.
happy drinking,
David Darrow
Dept. Biology
Indiana University UUCP ..iuvax!darrow
Bloomington, IN CSnet darrow@Indiana
47405c-hunt@tesla.UUCP (Charles Hunt) (02/18/85)
It's an interesting idea (yeasts contributing to "wineaches"), but it just aint
so. The subject is covered by experts (eg "Wine" by UC Davis man Amarine) in
more than one place: headaches result from a combination of what's been eaten
recently, which form of alcohol inbibed, and the victim's metabolism. No
simple formulas exist, but here are some trends: empty bellies, fortified
wines, combinations of liquor and wine, brandy and wine, lack of sleep, and
overindulging all add to wineaches FOR SOME. Also, "oversleeping" can cause
a similar type headache, often mistaken for hangovers. Some folks are also
overly sensitive: too much vanilla extract in the custard does them in.
Many of the finest wines of the Cote d'Or are intentionally fermented with
wild yeasts; conversely, ALL of the California cheap jugs are sterilized and
inoculated with wine strains, so the "yeast hypothesis" fails. In fact,
no particular type of wine consistantly shows a greater tendency (no, not
even sparkling; cremant or methode Champagnois) to bring about problems, with
the possible exception of Sherry, Porto, Marsala, or other high-alcohol
fortified types. Then again, with these, the problem may be quantity of
alcohol, as opposed to wine type. So, use intelligent moderation.
=Charles Hunt=c-hunt@tesla.UUCP (Charles Hunt) (02/18/85)
Just last week, we had a Mondavi winery "expert" giving a sensory evaluation
seminar here, discussing the "tricks" used by jug-wine folks. Laws are quite
strict on what can be put in, and preservatives (ala wonder-bread) are not
allowed. The three additives (besides Sulferdioxide which blows off) are
sugar, tartaric acid, and sulfer. The first two are used to balance an
awkward blend; but the third is purposely used to deaden the olifactory
system on the first swig so that the victim is less aware of the defects or
poor quality. If it's there, it's trace (75ppm), and you won't taste it
after the first sip, so buyer beware: carefully taste your cheap jug on the
first sip, and note any sulfer (you can't mistake the taste). If it's
there, don't buy the stuff again, or in a restaurant, send it back. It's
legal, but it's a burn.... =C.Hunt=
ps: better jugs, Monterey, Sebastiani, Modavi,
etc., don't use it.rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (02/20/85)
> But I can live with that. What really eats my curiosity is this -- > "Why do US beers and some european lagers (eg Heineken) give me vicious > headaches and upset stomaches if I drink any more than three?" > (and sometimnes it can be two). Whereas my tollerance of Molson is about > four bottles, of guinness is around 5-6 pints (before headaches, not before > getting drunk) and of most English beers is also around 5-6 pints. It appears > to be nothing to do with strength either alcoholic or "body" -- it must be > either something to do with the fermentation process (bottom brewed versus > top brewed?) Assuming that Molson's is a true ale (brewed with an ale yeast) this might be the distinction. Ales and lagers are made with different species of yeasts (not just different strains), so you might be particularly sensitive to some byproduct of fermentation that comes only from lager yeast (or from a less aerobic fermentation). HOWEVER, beware of using this as a criterion. Labeling laws in the U.S. are slightly on the far side of idiotic--a beverage may be labeled "ale" because the law requires it based on alcoholic content, regardless of the yeast used! Anyone else have this same effect? Have you tried some of the "true" ales in the U.S., such as Anchor Liberty Ale or Sierra Nevada Pale Ale? There's an off-chance of a reaction being tied to a particular variety of hops, though that would be hard to test since it's hard to find out which brewers use which varieties and most of them use combinations. > ... Anyone > know of any distinguishing ingredients? A friend suggested it might be > rice -- any rice in Heineken or Beck's ? Is there less rice in Molson than > Budweiser or Miller Light? (Yes, lights are just as bad as regular beers). Rice content may be significant in U.S. beers, but you won't find it in German beers (as long as they're made in Germany--Lowenbrau is NOT a German beer, for example). Rice wouldn't be allowed by the Reinheitsgebot [unless there's a way to malt it?!??] -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Relax...don't worry...have a homebrew.