[net.rumor] The elimination of certain non-technical newsgroups by so called "powers-that-be"

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) (05/01/86)

>In article <588@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, michael@ucbiris.berkeley.edu (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes:
>> A rumor has been put out that certain so called "powers-that-be" in the
>> backbone-sites are deciding the fate of certain non-technical
>> newsgroups, either to eliminate them, or to give them a second class
>> status.  The discussion is taking place without the general knowledge
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> of the USENET community.  It is being done in an attempt to reduce the
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> ever increasing costs of USENET, particularly to these backbone-sites.

I apparently missed the original article that contained this quote, but I
would like to know some more details about this.  If true, it would seem
that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.
-- 
Kenneth Arromdee                                               |      |
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rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) (05/04/86)

In article <2697@jhunix.UUCP> ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>In article <588@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, michael@ucbiris.berkeley.edu (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes:
>>> A rumor has been put out that certain so called "powers-that-be" in the
>>> backbone-sites are deciding the fate of certain non-technical
>>> newsgroups, either to eliminate them, or to give them a second class
>>> status.  The discussion is taking place without the general knowledge
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> of the USENET community.  It is being done in an attempt to reduce the
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> ever increasing costs of USENET, particularly to these backbone-sites.
>
>I apparently missed the original article that contained this quote, but I
>would like to know some more details about this.  If true, it would seem
>that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.

powers-that-be == folks-who-foot-the-big-phone-bills
so don't talk to me about "fair".

However, we (me being one of the lesser powers-what-be) are preparing
to air the finished proposal to the net for comments, suggestions,
enhancements, changes, whatever from the net at large.  Stay tuned
to net.news.group...
-- 

The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291)
alias: Curtis Jackson	...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd allegra ]!burl!rcj
			...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua  watmath ]!clyde!rcj

herbie@polaris.UUCP (Herb Chong) (05/06/86)

In article <2697@jhunix.UUCP> ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>In article <588@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, michael@ucbiris.berkeley.edu (Tom Slone [(415)486-5954]) writes:
>>> A rumor has been put out that certain so called "powers-that-be" in the
>>> backbone-sites are deciding the fate of certain non-technical
>>> newsgroups, either to eliminate them, or to give them a second class
>>> status.  The discussion is taking place without the general knowledge
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> of the USENET community.  It is being done in an attempt to reduce the
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> ever increasing costs of USENET, particularly to these backbone-sites.
>
>I apparently missed the original article that contained this quote, but I
>would like to know some more details about this.  If true, it would seem
>that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.

this newsgroup (net.news.group) has been having discussions on this
topic for the past year or more.  if you haven't been reading it then
it's about time you did if you really care about USENET.

as for fairness, it is us who have been getting the free lunch for the
past 4 years.  if the backbone sites say no more netnews unless someone
else pays, NO-ONE can force them to do otherwise.  the backbone has
been forking out a LOT of dollars (on the order of about $1M
collectively for 1985) to support USENET.  a dollar here, a dollar
there, it adds up.

Herb Chong...

I'm still user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

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========================================================================
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woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (05/06/86)

> >> The discussion is taking place without the general knowledge
> >> of the USENET community.  It is being done in an attempt to reduce the
> >> ever increasing costs of USENET, particularly to these backbone-sites.
> 
> I apparently missed the original article that contained this quote, but I
> would like to know some more details about this.  If true, it would seem
> that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.

  To try and discuss serious reorganization of the net with the entire net
participating would be a waste of time and would rapidly degenerate into
a flaming match (we know, it's been tried before). USENET is not "fair".
Our site (and the other backbones) pay a disproportionate amount of the
COST of this net, so it's only "fair" that we also make a disproportionate
amount of the decisions. 
  Secondly, in the current plan under discussion, NO GROUPS WOULD BE CREATED
OR REMOVED, simply renamed. Every site would still be free to accept or
reject any group as they choose, as they are now. Therefore the title of this
article is a misnomer. No one is talking about deleting any groups. While it
is true that a certain class of groups would become EASIER to drop as a whole
from a site, and each site would be forced to decide to explicitly accept
this new category of groups (which consists of the highest volume non-technical
groups), there is nothing to stop them from doing so if they wish. Anyone who
doesn't like the choices made by the backbone to not carry certain groups
is free to set up their own set of connections to carry those groups (and
pay the cost, too). That is the anarchical nature of USENET, and I do not see 
anything "unfair" in this.

--Greg
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | decvax!noao | mcvax!seismo | ihnp4!seismo}
       		        !hao!woods

CSNET: woods@ncar.csnet  ARPA: woods%ncar@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA

"The darkness never goes, from some men's eyes"

reid@decwrl.DEC.COM (Brian Reid) (05/07/86)

Like it or not, USENET is run by the Golden Rule: those who supply the gold
make the rules.

I draw your attention to the monthly readership postings to see where the
gold is really going.

reid@decwrl.DEC.COM (Brian Reid) (05/07/86)

I just realized that there is going to be a problem with switching to a new
top-level set of group names, like talk.politics. Through a h

roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (05/08/86)

> it would seem that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.

	So far, there have been several responses to this from SA's at
backbone sites.  Unfortunately, you have to admit that these people have a
built-in bias.  I'm not on the backbone, so I don't have that bias and
would like the opportunity to throw in my two cents.

	What the hell does fair mean?  Is it fair that a few big sites pay
all the costs to run this network?  I think not.  It's great that the
backbone sites have been willing to be so generous in the past.  Why does
that obligate them (legally, morally, or otherwise) to continue their
generosity regardless of the fact that the content of the net is rapidly
changing from technical discussions to sewage?

	I see 2 possible scenarios for the future of the net.  The first
scenario is that we have a net-wide discussion about what groups the
backbone should carry and what groups they shouldn't.  This discussion will
go on and on forever and not get anywhere and eventually the backbone sites
will get fed up with the whole mess and pull the plug entirely.

	Scenario number two is that the backbone sites talk between
themselves and decide what they have to do to keep the groups they consider
important going.  They don't consult the net at large, they just do it.  No
votes, no soliciting of opinions.  Nothing that even resembles Democracy.
Autocracy at its worst.

	There is, of course, a third scenario, in which the backbone
continues to shell out tons of money to keep the torrents of drivel flowing
without regard to cost.

	Given that scenario number 3 won't happen, I'd much rather see
number 2 than number 1.  And dammit, why shouldn't that be the proper way
to do things?  Who the hell am I to tell the backbone sites what they
should or shouldn't carry?  If they decide not to carry some group I want
to get and I can't arrange for an alternate feed (i.e. I'm too cheap to
shell out real money to call somebody long distance to get it), well,
that's my problem, isn't it?

	According to the netiquette document I got with news, you're
supposed to wait a while before posting flames in the hope that you cool
off a bit first.  I first posted this several days ago and then changed my
mind and canceled it.  Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy, which is a
pity because it had a nicer ring to it the first time when the sense of
outrage was still fresh.
-- 
Roy Smith, {allegra,philabs}!phri!roy
System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) (05/08/86)

>>>> A rumor has been put out that certain so called "powers-that-be" in the
>>>> backbone-sites are deciding the fate of certain non-technical
>>>> newsgroups, either to eliminate them, or to give them a second class
>>>> status.  The discussion is taking place without the general knowledge
>>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> of the USENET community.
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>...If true, it would seem that the powers-that-be are hardly playing fair.
>
>powers-that-be == folks-who-foot-the-big-phone-bills
>so don't talk to me about "fair".

My complaint of unfairness was not about the elimination of the newsgroups,
it was about the fact that the general Usenet community was not told what was
going on.

>However, we (me being one of the lesser powers-what-be) are preparing
>to air the finished proposal to the net for comments, suggestions,
>enhancements, changes, whatever from the net at large.  Stay tuned
>to net.news.group...

After you have a finished proposal, it seems that it would be much more
difficult for the Usenet community to get any changes made.  Why didn't you
say what you were discussing, WHILE you were discussing it, instead of after?

Also, I get the impression that this will happen in a few weeks.  In other
words, after University students who read netnews are in many cases home for
the summer.  If you had aired some of the discussion while you were creating
the proposal, such students (such as me) would get a chance to respond to
it.  As it is, they do not.
-- 
"We are going to give a little something, a few little years more, to
socialism, because socialism is defunct.  It dies all by iself.  The bad thing
is that socialism, being a victim of its... Did I say socialism?" -Fidel Castro

Kenneth Arromdee
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bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) (05/08/86)

I have no real trouble with whatever is going on by the backbone sites
(I don't think, but at least at a base philosophical level it's hard
to argue so I may as well concur.)

On the other hand, I still feel it's frustrating that a lot of this
would be unnecessary if the backbone sites *required* higher speed
connections, are the 2400 (and 4800, 9600) baud modems that now work
on asynch/voice lines really that hard to use effectively? It seems
from what people say about costs they could pay for themselves
quickly. What's the problem? If it's initial costs maybe we could pass
the hat around the net. If we could solve the problem with technology
why bother with all these politics etc?

	-Barry Shein, Boston University

doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (05/09/86)

>as for fairness, it is us who have been getting the free lunch for the
>past 4 years.  if the backbone sites say no more netnews unless someone
>else pays, NO-ONE can force them to do otherwise.

I'd like to add to this...

The "backbone" is *not* some kind of monopoly.  There is no reason that
other sites couldn't set up their own "backbone" which would carry all
the newsgroups that they want.

Except *that* would cost them real *money*, instead of being able to
take advantage of the generosity of the current backbone sites.

The only reason that there's only 1 backbone is because everybody else
is too dang cheap to develop, maintain, and pay the phone bills for
alternate connections.

So to all the gripers out there, I say: If you don't like the way the
current backbone sites run their operations, develop your own net
backbone.  Or else accept whatever freebies that the current backbone
sites provide with some degree of appreciation and grace, eh?
-- 
Doug Pardee -- CalComp -- {elrond,seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!terak!doug

tuba@ur-tut.UUCP (Jon Krueger) (05/12/86)

In article <575@bu-cs.UUCP> bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) writes:
> . . . are the 2400 (and 4800, 9600) baud modems that now work
>on asynch/voice lines really that hard to use effectively?
>What's the problem? 
One problem, at 9600 baud, single character interrupts start eating your
vax.  At even higher rates, other i/o architectures begin to eat host
resources.  Another problem, disk storage and i/o bandwidth aren't free
either.

>If it's initial costs maybe we could pass the hat around the net.
What do you think this is, token ring :-) :-)

Just kidding, I agree with you, only more so.  To those who want to save
their favorite newsgroup, I say: if it's worth posting to and reading from,
it's worth paying for.  I'm sure any backbone site will take your cash,
check, or credit card.  If you don't know how much to send, just ask the
backbone site administrator what your postings are costing him.  If you want
to lower your bills by buying him a better modem, I'm sure he'll cut a P.O.
for your signature.

And if you don't want to pay, please don't complain about how the backbone
sites manage net traffic.  If you're not willing to pay the real costs of
your traffic, clearly it isn't worth it to you; why should it be to anyone
else?  Flames to me personally: SEND MAIL DON'T POST.


-- Jon Krueger
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