rkp@drutx.UUCP (05/14/84)
The case with runner's on second and third with the fly ball caught for the second out, runner back to second for the second out, and then thrown home for the tag to make 4 outs is really outrageous. Someone must have been pulling your leg. Yesterday I saw this one. Trevino on third and Murphy on first with one out. Chambliss lines one to right center. Trevino is staying at third to tag up and score. Murphy heads on around second since the ball appears like it's going to drop in for a hit. Frobel makes a running catch on the track for out number two. Trevino tags up at third and literally walks in home for the tying run. BUT, Murphy has to put on the brakes around second and race back to first base, because, if the throw from Frobel gets to first before Murphy gets back, it is the third out (a force play) and the run doesn't score. (Fortunately, he got back, and the Braves made a great comeback in the bottom of the 10th to win.) So, the description by that nasty old Braves hater from Athens, GA couldn't be accurate. Once the third out is made, the inning is over. No runs can score on a force play so there is no reason to make the throw to the home plate. Russ Pierce drutx!rkp
mark@princeton.UUCP (Mark Weiss) (05/16/84)
If the runner from third tags up and scores before the
throw doubles off the runner from first, the run still counts.
It is not considered a force play (for some strange reason that I
don't believe).
Of course, if the throw to first catches the runner before
the run scores, the inning is over and no run.
Mark A. Weiss
Princeton University
EECS
princeton!mark
or
princeton!tilt!markhalle1@houxz.UUCP (J.HALLE) (05/16/84)
If the throw gets the runner before he gets back to first, the run does NOT count. This situation is specifically mentioned in the rule book. However, this brings up an interesting strategy. Suppose he has rounded second and is halfway to third. If he retraces his steps he will be out easily. But suppose he makes a beeline for first, cutting across the mound. He will beat the throw to first. Now an appeal will be made at second, since he failed to retouch it. He will be called out, but the run will count. (Unless they fixed that loophole when I wasn't looking. At least it used to be true.) N.B. leaving the base paths is only an automatic out if done so to avoid a tag or to interfere with a fielder.
rkp@drutx.UUCP (Pierce) (05/16/84)
< If the runner from third tags up and scores before the < throw doubles off the runner from first, the run still counts. < It is not considered a force play (for some strange reason that I < don't believe). < Of course, if the throw to first catches the runner before < the run scores, the inning is over and no run. NO NO NO! The runner MUST return to first base! It is a force play just like a runner MUST run from first to second on a hit ball in order to remain safe. Russ Pierce drutx!rkp
mark@princeton.UUCP (Mark Weiss) (05/17/84)
It is NOT a FORCE play. I said I didn't think the rules were consistent. I've seen this question in the Sporting News several times and Hal (of ask Hal the Referee) always gives the same answer. The general rule is: No run may score when a forced third out is made. A forced third out is: a) A runner failing to reach first base; b) Any runners forced to ADVANCE failing to reach their bases. In the situation we have, the runner isn't forced to advance. The runner on first who is doubled off is equivalent to this situation: Runners on first and third, two outs. Double steal is called for. Catcher throws to second as runner from third comes down the line. Ball beats runner to second so he goes back to first. Rundown ensues and runner is tagged after run scored. Run of course counts. On the other hand, runner on third two outs. Third strike dropped by catcher. If catcher's throw to first base beats runner, the run CANNOT score under any circumstances. One more example: Two outs, bases loaded. Batter hits fair ball over fence. a) Batter fails to touch first. On appeal he is out, no runs count. b) Batter fails to touch second or third base. On appeal he is out but all three runs count. c) Batter passes runner on basepaths. Umpire will declare batter out and the inning will end at that exact instant. Any runs that have scored count. Any proffesional UMPIRES out there? Are these rules different in softball and non-major league baseball?? Mark A. Weiss Princeton University Electrical Engineering and Comp. Sci. princeton!mark princeton!tilt!mark
rkp@drutx.UUCP (05/18/84)
I appreciate Mark's examples of runs and outs and scores and no scores, but none were the same as the situation I posted. One out, runners on 1st and 3rd. Batter lifts a drive to right-center. The runner on third is going to tag up if caught. The runner on first isn't paying good attention, and heads for second. Outfielder catches the ball (out number 2), runner on third tags up and heads home, runner from 1st has rounded second and retraces his steps to first. The outfielder tries to throw out the runner going back to 1st. The runner MUST return to 1st since the play on him will be a FORCE play (i.e., no tag required). If they force him, the run doesn't score. If he makes it back, the run scores. Even if the runner gets back to first and overruns the bag, he has safely returned to 1st and now must be tagged out to get the 3rd out, but the runner going home has obviously scored by now and the run counts.