mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (02/15/85)
[moved from net.unix-wizards, as it (among other things) didn't belong there.] In article <8242@brl-tgr.ARPA> cottrell@nbs-vms.ARPA writes: >If you have ever seen an adm-3a terminal you will know where h,j,k,l come >from. Those keys had arrows on the keys and ^h,^j,^k,^l moved the cursor >appropriately. Those keys also control the movement of worm(6). The adm-3 I used didn't *have* arrow keys :-). Yes, I know where those key choices came from. That's not a good reason to force them on other people. Sort of like IBM insisting that you have a 32xx to use some of their tools. >"Those who don not remember history are condemned to forget it." Great. Now if we can only get those who do remember history to forget it, so we can do things right. One of the things that bothers me most about BSD is the habit of taking a mediocre implementation of a good idea, and using it over and over again. To wit: nearly every thing that needs motion on a screen uses the "vi" command set (plug: see dbell@daisy's *very* slick life for an example), and far to many things (more than 0) have files that look like /etc/termcap. <mike
ted@usceast.UUCP (Ted Nolan) (02/17/85)
Actually, h, j, k and l are at least half memonic (since ^h is backspace
and ^j is line feed), but that is not the important point.
The point is that you never have to take your fingers off the letter keys
to move the cursor. I have never used a terminal where the arrow keys were
more easily accessible than h,j,k and l. In addition, if you tend to use
a variety of terminals (as I do), the placement of arrow keys never becomes
ingrained, but I can usually count on QWERTY.
Ted Nolan ..usceast!ted
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)
("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------jeff@alberta.UUCP (C. J. Sampson) (02/17/85)
>Great. Now if we can only get those who do remember history to forget it, >so we can do things right. One of the things that bothers me most about >BSD is the habit of taking a mediocre implementation of a good idea, and >using it over and over again. To wit: nearly every thing that needs motion >on a screen uses the "vi" command set (plug: see dbell@daisy's *very* slick >life for an example), and far to many things (more than 0) have files that >look like /etc/termcap. I have two points to make here: 1) I feel that the [hjkl] set of cursor keys is very convienent. I don't have to take my hands off of home row to move around, and this speeds up my editing. I don't like using arrow keys for the same reason that I don't like using a mouse: it forces me to take my hand off the proper place in the keyboard, and then I have to take the time to put it back in the proper place and make sure it is aligned correctly. 2) That fact that the large majority of programs use [hjkl] for cursor movement is good. This is known as consistency. Since most programs use them, you don't have to learn a new set of cursor keys whenever you switch from rogue to snake. I'd rather not fumble around every time I start a new program that needs cursor control. Consistency in general makes a lot of things far more easily understandable. If you see a file containing several items seperated by colons on each line, you can make the assumption that the colon is a delimiter, because it was done that way before. Better one consistent mediocore implementation than several hundred good implementations. ===================================================================== Curt Sampson ihnp4!alberta!jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- "It looked like something resembling white marble, which was probably what is was: something resembling white marble."
jerryp@tektools.UUCP (Jerry Peek) (02/18/85)
In article <726@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) writes: > > >If you have ever seen an adm-3a terminal you will know where h,j,k,l come > >from. Those keys had arrows on the keys and ^h,^j,^k,^l moved the cursor > >appropriately. Those keys also control the movement of worm(6). > > The adm-3 I used didn't *have* arrow keys :-). Yes, I know where those key > choices came from. That's not a good reason to force them on other people. > Sort of like IBM insisting that you have a 32xx to use some of their tools. I think there's another reason for using h, j, k, and l: If you're a touch typist, you'll notice that the keys are on the "home row", where they're very easy to reach. It gets so natural to use j and k for up and down that when I'm using an electric typewriter and want to make a correction, I end up with a bunch of k's on the paper... --Jerry Peek, UNIX Training Instructor, Tektronix, Inc. US Mail: MS 76-036, P.O. Box 500, Beaverton, OR 97077 uucp: {allegra,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,ucbvax}!tektronix!tektools!jerryp CS,ARPAnet: jerryp%tektools@tektronix.csnet Phone: 503/627-1603
toby@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Toby Harness) (02/18/85)
> .... One of the things that bothers me most about > BSD is the habit of taking a mediocre implementation of a good idea, and > using it over and over again. To wit: ... far to many things (more than 0) > have files that look like /etc/termcap. I don`t think all those programs that use termcap-like description files (lpr, getty, etc.) were done that way because anyone actually liked the termcap format, but rather because of the very efficient routines for reading that format (tgetent, tgetnum, tgetstr, etc.). I believe the lpr manual talks about this. Toby Harness Ogburn/Stouffer Center, University of Chicago ...ihnp4!gargoyle!toby
mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (02/19/85)
In article <2172@usceast.UUCP> ted@usceast.UUCP (System Programmer) writes: >Actually, h, j, k and l are at least half memonic (since ^h is backspace >and ^j is line feed), but that is not the important point. > >The point is that you never have to take your fingers off the letter keys >to move the cursor. Yup - that's a major advantage, all right. But given that, there are still "sensible" versus "nonsensical" command layouts. Sensical key layouts fall into three classes: Geometric, mnemonic and "speed-oriented." Emacs uses a true mnemonic system: ^Left, ^Right, ^Forward, and ^Back (in some cases, ^H also works). I can't recall an editor that uses a true geometric system, but it would look like: W (up) A (left) D (right) X (down) Word Star (on some terminals) uses a "speed-oriented" layout, like so: A (left), S (up), D (down), F (right). All the primary motion keys are on the home keys. The next row up (QWER) does line/page, and the lower row (ZXCV) does word/paragraph, or some such [from memory, so may be wrong]. Now vi, with hjkl, is almost a speed system. Since most other things in vi are mnemonic, I claim that this puts the vi motion commands in the set of "nonsensical" key layouts. Having used vi for two years before switching to Emacs(-like) editors, I find I prefer the true mnemonic systems. Brief experiments with geometric and arrow key systems haven't changed my opinion. However, there's been at least one study with various editing systems that places the speed ordering (for users in the same experience class) as mice/arrow keys/Emacs [If you want the reference, send mail and I'll dig it out.] While on the subject, I'll point out to people who don't know about Emacs that the motion commands are control keys because Emacs is "modeless." There is no "insert" command, as all normal graphics characters normally insert themselves into the buffer. I think that not having to do context switches to go from inserting to correcting text more than pays for having to use control keys to move the cursor. The word "modes" in the above paragraph is quoted because Emacs supports "modes" that change the meaning of some commands: Examles include "text" that makes a space character check the line length and insert a newline if you've exceeded the margin; "Automargin" that works like the vi "Autoindent"; and "Electric-C" that causes "{" and "}" to change the margins correctly for "white book" style. Enough. Try Emacs: you'll like it. <mike
howard@cyb-eng.UUCP (Howard Johnson) (02/20/85)
> The point is that you never have to take your fingers off the letter keys > to move the cursor. I have never used a terminal where the arrow keys were > more easily accessible than h,j,k and l. In addition, if you tend to use > a variety of terminals (as I do), the placement of arrow keys never becomes > ingrained, but I can usually count on QWERTY. I knew someone would like h,j,k,l for the same reasons that I do. -- Howard Johnson Cyb Systems, Austin, TX ..!{gatech,harvard,ihnp4,nbires,seismo}!ut-sally!cyb-eng!howard
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (02/21/85)
In article <726@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) writes: > >>If you have ever seen an adm-3a terminal you will know where h,j,k,l come >>from. Those keys had arrows on the keys and ^h,^j,^k,^l moved the cursor >>appropriately. Those keys also control the movement of worm(6). > >The adm-3 I used didn't *have* arrow keys :-). Yes, I know where those key >choices came from. That's not a good reason to force them on other people. > But 'vi' *doesn't* force h,j,k,l cursor control on you. Every version of it that I have ever seen also supports the *real* arrow keys on terminals that have them. Why not use them if you don't like the ADM3-a approach. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen
ron@BRL-TGR (Ron Natalie) (02/21/85)
Of couse this causes the "iff bt ibe jet stbdrioe" that rogue players also suffer from one, because the easiest way to navigate is to move the fingers of your right hand one key to the right of where they should be, when you then attempt to type some characters, touch typists get all screwed up. -Ron
wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP (02/22/85)
PLATO terminals have arrow keys on the a, q, w, e, d, c, x, and z keys, so that the direction keys circle the 's' key. The editor is a dumb line editor, but games (for example, Empire) use those arrow keys. "When you are about to die, a wombat is better than no company at all." Roger Zelazney, *Doorways in the Sand* Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat
lcc.jbrown@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (Jordan Brown) (02/22/85)
From: mwm@ucbtopaz.cc.UCB-VAX.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.unix
Subject: Re: h,j,k,l in vi
Date: 19 Feb 85 04:04:26 GMT
Xref: seismo net.unix:3831
To: info-unix@BRL-TGR.ARPA
An interesting note, but many of the details are wrong.
...Emacs uses a
true mnemonic system: ^Left, ^Right, ^Forward, and ^Back (in some cases,
^H also works)...
^Forward, ^Back (characters); ^Next, ^Previous (lines).
^Reverse is reverse search; ^L is (for historical reasons) repaint screen.
...Word Star (on some terminals) uses a "speed-oriented" layout, like so: A
(left), S (up), D (down), F (right)....
Nope, positional:
scroll up up up page
^W ^E ^R
left word left char right char right word
^A ^S ^D ^F
scroll down down down page
^Z ^X ^C
These are the standard layouts for these editors. Note that WordStar, for
instance, starts with a positional layout, and then tries to be mnemonic
for non-movement commands, but fails miserably because most of the interesting
letters are already used up.
I've used all three of these (WordStar, vi, and emacs [ REAL emacs, the
ITS PDP-10 version ]), and currently I'm using vi because it's faster than
emacs and provides most of the functionality I need. WordStar, of course,
doesn't run under Unix and besides doesn't provide the functionality I like
in an editor.
Why doesn't somebody put together a Unix version of TECO? Best editor ever;
if you can't do it in a line or two of TECO it's not worth doing anyway.
jordan
---
no, my name doesn't do anything interesting as a TECO macro; both names
(all three, really) contain commands with string arguments, so most of the
characters don't get interpretted.quiroz@rochester.UUCP (Cesar Quiroz) (02/23/85)
Not to be taken too seriously (nor as a reason to "fix" rogue or vi :-), but > I think there's another reason for using h, j, k, and l: If you're a touch > typist, you'll notice that the keys are on the "home row", where they're > very easy to reach ... > If you're a touch typist, you'd appreciate 'jkl;' more than this off-by-one non-solution for a non-problem. Cesar
hugh@BRL-BMD.ARPA (USAFAS) (02/23/85)
The catch is that the home keys for a touch typist are j,k,l,;. These keys would be much more easy to use. hugh@brl
msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (02/24/85)
I don't use conventional touch-typing (but I typed this sentence without looking at the keyboard, and used the backspace key only twice along the way); I don't use conventional touch-typing (but I typed these two lines without looking at the keys and having to use the backspace only twice), but I can see the advantage of hjkl on the home row for those who do. And I don't use vi either, but that doesn't disqualify me from commenting on hjkl, because I do play rogue. I find that all terminals that I have used that have up and down arrow keys have the up before the down, i.e., either to the left of it or above it. I must not have ever used the ADM-3a, then, because in the hjkl scheme, up(k) comes AFTER down(j). (I CAN think of terminals where control-J was linefeed and control-K reverse linefeed, but this is nonstandard since control-K is supposed to be vertical tab.) I claim that if my experience is representative then hjkl is braindamaged. Mild flame: What can you expect from the place that gave us "more", where the functions of interrupt and quit are reversed, space has the job that belongs to return, and the standard end-of-file character is an ordinary command? ...No counterflames please, I know all this is opinion... Mark Brader
Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA (02/25/85)
The real reason for the h,j,k,l mappings in vi is that Berkeley had nothing but ADM-3a in the early days. If you look on it keyboard, those keys are the equivalent of the cursor control characters. As a matter of fact, the early vi had no termcap support...it knew about terminals like adm-3 by heart. I think that's why there's the :set term=foo command...then came termcap, and here we are... Daniel Conde conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA
guy@rlgvax.UUCP (Guy Harris) (02/26/85)
> But 'vi' *doesn't* force h,j,k,l cursor control on you. > Every version of it that I have ever seen also supports the *real* > arrow keys on terminals that have them. Why not use them if you > don't like the ADM3-a approach. Because they can be unreliable. On the few occasions when I use "vi" (heh heh), I've seen it get confused when I use the arrow keys on my VT100, so I've adjusted to using h/j/k/l. I suspect it may be related to the fact that "vi" does timeouts on input to distinguish escape sequences from normal typing (but since I rarely use "vi" I don't really care why it does it). Guy Harris {seismo,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!guy
rad@Mitre-Bedford (02/27/85)
>> But 'vi' *doesn't* force h,j,k,l cursor control on you. >> Every version of it that I have ever seen also supports the *real* >> arrow keys on terminals that have them. Why not use them if you >> don't like the ADM3-a approach. >Because they can be unreliable. On the few occasions when I use "vi" >(heh heh), I've seen it get confused when I use the arrow keys on my >VT100, so I've adjusted to using h/j/k/l. I suspect it may be related >to the fact that "vi" does timeouts on input to distinguish escape sequences >from normal typing (but since I rarely use "vi" I don't really care why >it does it). The timeout problem that you mention is particularly irksome when you're working over a terminal network with the delays that it introduces. To make "vi" quit worrying so much about escape sequences, put "set notimeout" in your ~/.exrc file. I've had this in my .exrc file for some time, and the only "bad" thing that I've noticed about this is that I have to hit escape twice before I can force a visual bell. Dick Dramstad rad@mitre-bedford.arpa
rpw3@redwood.UUCP (Rob Warnock) (02/27/85)
+--------------- | The real reason for the h,j,k,l mappings in vi is that Berkeley had | nothing but ADM-3a in the early days. If you look on it keyboard, those | keys are the equivalent of the cursor control characters... | Daniel Conde | conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA +--------------- In all of this dialog about h,j,k,l lately, I have seen no one note the following (sorry if this is a repeat): H/J/K/L are "reasonable" for left/down/up/right for the simple fact that <cntl>-H == backspace == move left <cntl>-J == line feed == move down <cntl>-K == vert. tab == move up (on many terminals) <cntl>-L == form feed == clear screen [Oh well, can't win 'em all! ;-} ] That these keys also are (1) on the home row and (2) form a "linearized" or "flattened" version of the "diamond" cursor-key pattern is an additional convenience. Note that several game programs which use h,j,k,l for cursor motions also allow a,s,d,f for left-handed folk. Rob Warnock Systems Architecture Consultant UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax!dual}!fortune!redwood!rpw3 DDD: (415)572-2607 USPS: 510 Trinidad Lane, Foster City, CA 94404
root@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) (02/28/85)
An un/poorly documented feature of VI (at least this works on our 4.2bsds and SYSV/3B5 systems) is 'set notimeout' which turns off that broken feature and *poof* no more A A or whatever your tty transmits for cursor keys. You are right Guy, it is that attempt to tell you that you hit ESC and didn't mean it. Why didn't the vi implementors follow what the DEC folks always do: if you hit ESC, just drop down to the mode line and say: Are you sure? [net.joke] -Barry Shein, Boston University
john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) (02/28/85)
>From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) >Message-ID: <338@psivax.UUCP> > > But 'vi' *doesn't* force h,j,k,l cursor control on you. >Every version of it that I have ever seen also supports the *real* >arrow keys on terminals that have them. Why not use them if you >don't like the ADM3-a approach. > Not quite- to be specific, 'vi' will use the arrow keys provide that your terminal transmits some code or another when you press them. Many terminals (P-E 1200's) treat the arrow keys as a local command and do not send them to the host. Even if you terminal *does* send a code for each of its arrow keys, you may still not be able to use them in 'vi'. One of the arrow keys on my TRS-80 Model 100 sends a code which is apparently reserved in 'vi'. (I think it is ^_ .) Whenever I use it, I get a 'no tags file' error message. -- Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john Silly Quote: "Everybody knows in the second life, We all come back sooner or later. As anything from a pussy cat, To a man-eating alligator."
robert@gitpyr.UUCP (Robert Viduya) (03/01/85)
>< Posted from friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) > > But 'vi' *doesn't* force h,j,k,l cursor control on you. > Every version of it that I have ever seen also supports the *real* > arrow keys on terminals that have them. Why not use them if you > don't like the ADM3-a approach. Why not? Because a lot of terminals have cursor keys that conflict with vi's keystroke commands. Take for example one of the Televideo type term- inals. The cursor right key sends a ^L and the cursor down sends a ^V. Vi uses a ^L as a 'redraw screen' command and a ^V as a 'quote next char' command. What does vi do in this case? It preempts the action normally attached to the keys in favor of the cursor keys, leaving the poor user without a redraw screen or quote next. Then there's the ADDS Regent 25 which uses a ^Z as one of it's cursor control keys. Under 4.2BSD, vi isn't built to catch that. robert -- Robert Viduya Georgia Institute of Technology ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!robert ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert
robert@gitpyr.UUCP (Robert Viduya) (03/03/85)
>< Posted from rpw3@redwood.UUCP (Rob Warnock) > H/J/K/L are "reasonable" for left/down/up/right for the simple fact that > > <cntl>-H == backspace == move left > <cntl>-J == line feed == move down > <cntl>-K == vert. tab == move up (on many terminals) > <cntl>-L == form feed == clear screen [Oh well, can't win 'em all! ;-} ] Televideo terminals (and their look-a-likes) use ^L as a cursor right. robert -- Robert Viduya Georgia Institute of Technology ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!robert ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert