tweten@AMES-NAS.ARPA (Dave Tweten) (08/13/85)
From: campbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) > Forget about multitasking, mountable file > systems, etc., let's just see what you'd have to add to MS-DOS to make > it even close to a typical PC Unix. I'm using very rough rule-of-thumb > prices based on retail prices for comparable products: Fine, and I'll add to the right the prices and utilities I have actually added to my MS-DOS version 2 system to provide the required FUNCTIONALITY. > C compiler $ 300 | $ 259 Microsoft C 3.0 > lint 500 | 0 Option included in Microsoft C > as 100 | 109 MASM 3.0 > vi, ex, ed 600 | 75 "ed" portion of PC-WRITE (with sources) > plot, graph, spline 200 | - I don't need them > make 100 | 0 included with MASM > adb 300 | 0 SYMDEB, included with MASM > nroff, tbl, neqn 500 | 0 "pr" portion of PC-WRITE (price above) > spell 100 | - Waiting for my free PC-WRITE update > TOTAL $2600 | $ 443 MY TOTAL > All of the utilities I've listed (and lots more) come with VENIX/86, which > sells for $800. I think it's a bargain. (Note that I didn't even list all > the stuff you just can't get for MS-DOS: awk, bc, dc, sh, csh, uucp, m4, > tar, time, lex, yacc...) Had I wanted to save more money I could have substituted CHASM (public domain) for MASM, legally got a copy of PC-WRITE from a friend (free), and bought DeSmet C instead of Microsoft, for a total of $155. MS-DOS itself, naturally, came free with my Zenith XT-clone. Note that I didn't even list my $45 optimizing FORTRAN compiler (Microsoft, version 3.2) or all the public domain utilities I use with MS-DOS: touch, dosedit, kermit, whereis, blank2, older, lu, sq, usq, etc., all FREE and most with sources. Looks to me like AT&T has largely priced UNIX out of the wider PC market, when you consider real needs and real prices, rather than looking at the products of years of creeping utilityism and "list" prices. > Larry Campbell, UNIX and VENIX fan. Dave Tweten, UNIX and MS-DOS *user*.
campbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) (08/16/85)
> Fine, and I'll add to the right the prices and utilities I have actually > added to my MS-DOS version 2 system to provide the required FUNCTIONALITY. > > > C compiler $ 300 | $ 259 Microsoft C 3.0 > > lint 500 | 0 Option included in Microsoft C > > as 100 | 109 MASM 3.0 > > vi, ex, ed 600 | 75 "ed" portion of PC-WRITE (with sources) > > plot, graph, spline 200 | - I don't need them > > make 100 | 0 included with MASM > > adb 300 | 0 SYMDEB, included with MASM > > nroff, tbl, neqn 500 | 0 "pr" portion of PC-WRITE (price above) > > spell 100 | - Waiting for my free PC-WRITE update > > TOTAL $2600 | $ 443 MY TOTAL You're comparing apples and oranges (crabapples and oranges, I should say). The "lint" option included with some C compilers does not do cross-module argument checking, one of lint's most important features. The "make" that comes with MASM is a toy (no macros or default rules. I doubt that PC-WRITE includes anywhere near the functionality that nroff, tbl, and neqn give you. > > All of the utilities I've listed (and lots more) come with VENIX/86, which > > sells for $800. I think it's a bargain. (Note that I didn't even list all > > the stuff you just can't get for MS-DOS: awk, bc, dc, sh, csh, uucp, m4, > > tar, time, lex, yacc...) > > Had I wanted to save more money I could have substituted CHASM (public > domain) for MASM, legally got a copy of PC-WRITE from a friend (free), and > bought DeSmet C instead of Microsoft, for a total of $155. MS-DOS itself, > naturally, came free with my Zenith XT-clone. Note that I didn't even list > my $45 optimizing FORTRAN compiler (Microsoft, version 3.2) or all the public > domain utilities I use with MS-DOS: touch, dosedit, kermit, whereis, blank2, > older, lu, sq, usq, etc., all FREE and most with sources. MS-DOS itself isn't "free", its price is just bundled into your hardware price by Zenith. You think Microsoft gives them MS-DOS for nothing? And note that most of the public domain utilities that people collect for MS-DOS are required just to make MS-DOS usable at all -- whereas Unix comes out of the box with most of the utilities you'll need. If you'd rather spend time getting work done than scouring the bboards for freebies (which might work, and might have manuals) you're better off with Unix. As far as your list of public domain utilities go: touch comes with Unix. dosedit would be nice, I admit (although the csh history mechanism is a close 2nd in niceness). One of the best Kermit implementations is available for Unix and I run it. Unix find does much more than whereis. I don't know what blank2 and older do. Unix ar does what lu does. sq and usq are available for Unix, but a much better program that uses a superior compression algorithm called compress is also available in the public domain for Unix. And what about awk, bc, dc, sh, csh, uucp, m4, tar, time, lex, yacc... and multitasking? > Looks to me like AT&T has largely priced UNIX out of the wider PC market, > when you consider real needs and real prices, rather than looking at the > products of years of creeping utilityism and "list" prices. > > > Larry Campbell, UNIX and VENIX fan. > > Dave Tweten, UNIX and MS-DOS *user*. Yes, because the wider PC market consists of people who just run Lotus or dBase II and never write a program. These people need C compilers like they need a hole in the head. I'm talking about software developers (and so, presumably, are you). Each operating system has its place and it's pointless to have religious debates claiming one is better than the other in all areas. I spent two years attaching public domain warts to MS-DOS because I had to. I now run Unix and use MS-DOS only for debugging MS-DOS applications (for my customers). MS-DOS is superior as a delivery vehicle for an application, because it's cheap, everyone has it, and installation and operation of it is trivial. But to claim MS-DOS is a superior software development environment is pretty silly. And I still claim that when all is said and done, Unix is cheaper for doing REAL software development than MS-DOS. - Larry Campbell "MS-DOS for end users, Unix for real developers"
peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/17/85)
> > it even close to a typical PC Unix. I'm using very rough rule-of-thumb > > prices based on retail prices for comparable products: > > Fine, and I'll add to the right the prices and utilities I have actually > added to my MS-DOS version 2 system to provide the required FUNCTIONALITY. And I'll critique them... > > C compiler $ 300 | $ 259 Microsoft C 3.0 > > lint 500 | 0 Option included in Microsoft C > > as 100 | 109 MASM 3.0 > > vi, ex, ed 600 | 75 "ed" portion of PC-WRITE (with sources) You telling me PC-WRITE comes anywhere near 'vi/ex/ed' as a text editor? It is to laugh. I'm still looking for an acceptable editor for the PC. > > plot, graph, spline 200 | - I don't need them > > make 100 | 0 included with MASM > > adb 300 | 0 SYMDEB, included with MASM > > nroff, tbl, neqn 500 | 0 "pr" portion of PC-WRITE (price above) See above. > > spell 100 | - Waiting for my free PC-WRITE update > > TOTAL $2600 | $ 443 MY TOTAL How about dump/restor (for hard disks), the PC restore program is a botch. uucp $350 sh unavailable (and badly missed) > > All of the utilities I've listed (and lots more) come with VENIX/86, which > > sells for $800. I think it's a bargain. (Note that I didn't even list all Sells for $1045. > > the stuff you just can't get for MS-DOS: awk, bc, dc, sh, csh, uucp, m4, > > tar, time, lex, yacc...) > > Had I wanted to save more money I could have substituted CHASM (public > domain) for MASM, legally got a copy of PC-WRITE from a friend (free), and > bought DeSmet C instead of Microsoft, for a total of $155. MS-DOS itself, > naturally, came free with my Zenith XT-clone. Note that I didn't even list > my $45 optimizing FORTRAN compiler (Microsoft, version 3.2) or all the public > domain utilities I use with MS-DOS: touch, dosedit, kermit, whereis, blank2, > older, lu, sq, usq, etc., all FREE and most with sources. touch, find, cu/uucp, ar, compress, all "free". > Looks to me like AT&T has largely priced UNIX out of the wider PC market, > when you consider real needs and real prices, rather than looking at the > products of years of creeping utilityism and "list" prices. This is, unfortunately, true. Not for the reasons above but because people don't see the need for decent multitasking (doubledos and friends won't cut it), and a well integrated set of software. The guilt isn't AT&T's, though. Even if they cut the license fee to 0 it wouldn't help, as I have been informed when I made the same complaint. I don't know the answer, but I can tell you we've spent WELL over $1045 on software that we wouldn't have had to get if our PCs had UNIX. > > > Larry Campbell, UNIX and VENIX fan. > > Dave Tweten, UNIX and MS-DOS *user*. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076