[net.suicide] afterlife and vitalism

lew (06/18/82)

In "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", Gibbon comments that
the early Christians held their beliefs with an intensity that we
cannot fully appreciate in our modern age. They eagerly sought martyrdom,
leaping ecstatically into the flames. Gibbons manner of description
is very wry, with his sympathies seemingly much more with the Romans
than with the Christians.

It seems to me that any form of afterlife requires a vitalistic view of
life. That is, an extra-physical factor of some kind. This would seem to
be inconsistent with the view that life, including man, evolved continuously
from inanimate matter. At what point does the vitalistic spark enter the
picture? This phylogenetic problem is recapitulated ontogenetically.
Conception is a physical process; when and in what way does the vitalism
occur?

Francis Crick cited his anti-vitalistic sentiments as a prime motive
in his choice of genetics as a field of endeavor. Since that time he
has embraced the pansperma theory of life. This was a real surprise to
me, I would think he would have more patience with evolution.

			Lew Mammel, Jr. - BTL Indian Hill

borman (06/21/82)

Lew Mammel, Jr. (article ihuxv.158) said:

	"It seems to me that any form of afterlife requires a
	vitalistic view of life. That is, an extra-physical factor
	of some kind. This would seem to be inconsistent with the
	view that life, including man, evolved continuously from
	inanimate matter."

Well, I happen to belive in the Christian view of afterlife.  I also
happen NOT to belive in macro-evolution (e.g., we all evolved from
one cell)  I do belive in micro-evolution. (e.g, the evolution of the
horse from it's smaller ancestors)  So, I have no problem beliving
in God and eternal life.

Since this is net.suicide, and I'm talking anyway, how do I look at
afterlife and suicide?  Well, I belive in Heaven and Hell.  I belive
that those who have been forgiven of their sins will be saved.  To
be forgiven, you need to repent.  I also belive you can't gain forgivness
by confessing the act, and then carrying it out. (confession comes
AFTER the sin, not before)  So, if suicide is a sin, those who commit
suicide are not forgiven, and thus are damned. (There just isn't time
for a prayer after you've pulled the trigger)

The reason I look at suicide as a sin is that it is the willful
destruction of a creation of God.  And not just any creature, but one
with a Soul. (That part of us that lives on after death!)  I look at
suicide as a special case of murder; where the victim is the killer
also.  If those who are in such dispair that they wish to commit suicide
would look to God, they would find the support they need to continue
living. "If God is for us, who can be against us" (Rom. 8:31b)

Ok, before you all start flaming at me, I also belive that it is 
possible for a suicide victim to be saved.  For example: The victim
drinks poison, and then before he dies, realizes his wrong, and prays
for forgivness.  But if he is really repentent, he'll try to vomit
up the poison or something, so that he won't die.(If he still has
the strength)  So, like with everything else, there are no absoulutes.
I also refuse to do any judging in any specific examples, because that
is for God alone. (those who judge will themselves be judged)

				-Dave Borman
				St. Olaf College
				ihnss!ihps3!stolaf!borman

doug (06/21/82)

Aren't there all sorts of other exceptions, even for the strictest
catholic, on suicide/damnation.  Aren't there exceptions for people
who are not sane at the time they do it?  Doesn't this cover a
large field?

(I am not adhering to the previous gentleman's beliefs at all, I'm
just making a query about the "rules" he cites)