donald (06/22/82)
Dave Borman's comments on suicide and salvation brings up an interesting theological point: what defines suicide as far as The Head Honcho is concerned? A reasonable definition of suicide might be "an act which results in a reason- able probability of the death of the actor, and whose consequences the actor are aware of". Remember, nothing is certain-- a gun may misfire, pills may not work, etc. Now, can we not argue that people who smoke are not saved? After all, being a smoker entails a significant risk of death through cancer or respiratory illness. Will Evel Knievel be saved? After all, he does things that most people consider suicidal. At what point does risk become suicide? When the probability of death is greater than .5? Awaiting the flaming replies, Don Chan
jj (06/24/82)
Taking Mr. Chan's arugement to its (ill)logical limits: I know that I could die in an automobile accident on the way to work. Is going to work suicidal? I'm not going to order pro/anti smoking as I sit by by 160 CFM micropore filter.(My roommate shokes 3 packs a day.) but it seems that any reasonable person is going to realize that life in fact implies death. It could be argued that those who go to work or smoke do NOT intend to die, therefore they are not suicides, gluttons in the case of smokers, maybe but not suicides. I would argue that a person who smoked in order to start a tumor would be a suicide, but a person who smoked for <whatever reason people do it for> would not, unless there was some intent involved. The matter of intent is very important because of the following arguement. Assume for the purposes of arguement that someone is seriously and they need a particular medical treatment that will cure them if it succeeds and kill them otherwise. Assume that it is 75% likely that they will die with the treatment. Assume forther that it is 100% likely that they will die without the treatment. Which course of action is suicide? Certainly any action that I would take that had a 75% chance of death would be regarded as suicide<at least I'd think so>, so the patient is subjecting himself to almost certain death. Since his alternitive is also certain death, what is the theologically correct course, excluding arguements based on the theological implications of medical care in itself?
dlr (06/24/82)
Let us extend Don Chan's question. Anybody who is alive will one day die. Therefore the probability of death is 1. Is the very act of living a form of suicide? Dave Rosik P.S. Too bad Lew Mammel (Jr) is away for a while. He'd love the way this is going.
borman (06/27/82)
The Random House Dictionary says: suicide ... 1. the intentional taking of one's own life. Note the word INTENTIONAL. I don't know of any smokers who smoke because they feel it will kill them. Suicide is not just doing something that kills you, it's doing something that kills you because you WANT it to kill you. -Dave Borman St. Olaf College ihnss!ihps3!stolaf!borman
murray@sri-unix (07/01/82)
What about the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his mates, he know in advance that it will kill him, which qualifies as suicide by your definition, is this man damned forever? murray at intelqa
derek (07/02/82)
There is one important distinction between suicide and a suicidal act, the intentions of the person. Consider a soldier in wartime who throws himself on a live bomb to save his fellow soldiers near him. His intention was not to die, in fact, he(she) would be more than happy if he (she) survived. This type of act has another name - heroism. Daredevils do not usually wish to die. Granted, there may be some who do which is their motivation for their acts. It is almost impossible to determine what an individual's intentions are in a lot of cases, and whether or not their death was suicide or accidental. Derek Andrew U of Saskatchewan
wagner (07/06/82)
Or, for that matter, is Spock damned forever? Michael Wagner, UofToronto Computing Services
derek (07/13/82)
A soldier throwing himself on a gernade to save his(her) mates knows in advance that it will kill him (unless it is a dud) but it is not his intention to die, thus is not damned forever. Derek Andrew U of Saskatchewan (in the Great White North)