hammy (04/12/83)
I don't know how many other people were interested, but I want to say
congratulations to Alan S. Watt for a really great article. For a long
while I thought net.suicide had done itself in with all the random
tirades. I would like to toss in a little imput about my feelings, and
perhaps I could expound on some of the points Alan has brought up that
are relative to my life.
Now when someone commits suicide, they have asserted an answer to that
question: "there is none". The rest of us either have to agree with
the suicide, and kill ourselves as well, or we have to dispute the act,
which requires that we provide a different answer.
Well, what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What is our
purpose and destiny?
"Well, er, ... I ummm, well I get by, sort of ..."
You see? The act of suicide forces each of us to try to come up with a
reason for living, which makes uncomfortable; we would rather ignore
the issue, and continue to "get by".
A person confiding an intent to suicide is even more unkind; you have
only the choices of doing nothing and allowing that person to die, or
trying based on your own life to prove that life IS worth living.
Well? can you justify your life?
I consider my primary purpose in life is to help make the world a better
place to live in. Since I am not in some kind of professional social
work, I have to do this more or less as an "extracurricular activity".
I think it is a justifiable purpose, and it gives me a goal that I will
never have to worry about achieving too soon.
As far as personal responsibilities, this involves developing my talents
as well as I can, including gaining as much wisdom as I can in my short
life. As far as responsibilities to other people, I feel an obligation
to devote a large amount of my time to helping other people in various
ways.
One of the ways I try to help people is listening. By listening, I do
not mean trying to absorb myself in the soap opera of their lives,
rather, trying to grasp the drama and feeling that is being unfolded to
me. I try to hear the ideas that they would impart on my consciousness.
I think this listening can help a person feel less lonely, and does not
have to be done within an intimate relationship.
Coupled with this listening is a desire to understand how the person is
and feels, to empathize with their situation. At some point, if I can
understand them, and if they want it to be, I try to help them with a
problem that is bothering them.
Along with this philosophy are many difficulties and codes of ethics.
Dome of the codes I have taken from religeon, and surprisingly, some I
have taken from science fiction. One example is the "Prime Directive";
not trying cause a change in (a person), but to let that change occur
naturally.
I think it's very much too bad this newsgroup has been so dominated by
people who will not address the questions suicide purports to answer.
Perhaps the electronic medium is just too impersonal to allow people to
express (expose?) themselves this way. Or perhaps it's just that so
many people have lost faith in themselves because the world they live
in seems so complex and unreasonable.
As far as the impersonality of the network, I think net.suicide faces a
unique problem that if any close feeling s are expressed, the person
expressing them stands a good chance of being harrassed by some of the
less responsable readers. Suicide (and personal interation, for that
matter) is a very emotional subject and people have various means for
dealing with these feelings, as you have already itemized. I am not
afraid of bein harassed myself, I would attribute any senseless
harrassment as a reflection of the problems of the harrasser. If I am
to be countered on my points for their own merit, I would listen to the
other person's perspective.
I know I have a strong inhibition against sharing experiences from my
life, feeling it's "none of their business". However, having thrown
down the gauntlet, I feel obligated to be the first one to pick it up.
I too, feel in general, that it is no ones business how another person
feels or how they have lived their life, unless they choose to share it.
I personally choose to share any part of my life that a person would ask
of me, as long as it does not conflict with any trust relationships that
I have built up with other people. I have picked up my gauntlet when I
found out how much love I had for other people, and how much love they
could have for me.
Well, I'll leave you with a thought I once had:
If medicine, or psychiatry could somehow restore faith in life
to those who lacked it, then that same technology could take
it away from those who had it.
To close, I have found that faith can be even stronger stuff than life
itself. I have heard of many deadly poisons for the body, but I have
always marveled at how faith seemed to be so much more durable.
The Eternal Optimist &
The Incorrigible Romantic
J. Scott Hamilton
decvax!genrad!mit-eddietrb (04/13/83)
Mit-eddie!hammy says that his purpose in life is to make the world a better place in which to live and then goes on to say that his self-improvement activities strive toward that end. I wonder if he thinks that he was created for a different reason than other people. Looking at the world in producer/consumer terms, I think that hammy's ideal sounds like a producer rather than a consumer. That doesn't make for a very well rounded universal economy. When I look at the "why am I here" question, I think about my impression of the world as my senses receiving impulses and all, and I think that my job here is to enjoy it. I venture to guess that people like hammy who make the world a better place to live, do so out of feelings of guilt or satisfaction, for personal reasons. Here a self, there a self, everywhere a self, self. Even altruists are selves. Boy, this discussion could degenerate into a sophomoric "what is reality" fiasco pretty damned quick, if so, let's move it to net.philosophy. Doing it for grins, Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491
vax1:swifty (04/14/83)
I have been reading this newsgroup ever since I learned about the net and for the first time (almost) the seeds of an important discussion have appeared. I have the opportunity of knowing and being a friend of someone who is extremely suicidal. I have learned that all the standard answers like "look what you've got...", etc. are useless when helping. You have to be comfortable with not being able to explain why you want to live. Hamilton is correct, because the only way you can help, if that is your goal, is to show the person in trouble that you care. To show you care you have to be prepared to be hurt. You have to be prepared to fail and it will hurt. I've been on the phone trying to convince my friend to stay on the line while I have the medics called by someone else. Talking with someone who has overdosed on sleeping pills and listening to them fade away as the emergency team worries about which county they are responding to. Up to that day I had been giving that friend the standard "bullshit" about living, the good things to look forward to, "think about those who love you," etc. It is really all a bunch of garbage. What you have to show them is that you have a purpose for your life. I don't think that there can be any other purpose than to help other people, to make the world a better place to be. This doesn't mean that you have to go around hugging every person you see, but it does mean that you must learn and utilize you talents to the best of your ability. You must be prepared to bare you feelings. I agree that you don't need to listen to the soap opera of someones troubles, but listening nevertheless can help. Be prepared to be used. Be prepared to be hated. If you are trying to help someone in a suicidal situation the feeling (s) are so intense that pain will come easily. I suspect that some of you will now respond by saying that I'm trying to get something for myself, or that I am being a egoist (that's the right word, look it up). You are right. I cannot claim to do anything for the world if I can't do anything for myself. All I can hope is that the things I do to help the person in need and to help myself will provide some benefit to the earth and the people in it. I cannot hope to succeed if I wait until I know that what I'm doing is the right and best thing. Today is the 18th birthday of my friend. She has announced to the world that she will not live past this date. I am convinced that we have built a shield around her so she won't try anything today, but I am also convinced that she will eventually succeed in her desire to die. I probably will fail to keep her alive, but I haven't failed in my goal of helping people. Through her, I have met several others who were on the edge. They are no longer there. But above all I have learned to not be afraid of baring my innermost feelings. When it all is analysed the only thing that really matters is love. If you flame back at me asking what that means, I won't be able to answer. I do know, however, that I love my young friend and she knows that I do. I cannot offer anymore than myself and love forms the framework of the relationship. She will not die knowing she is alone; she will choose to die knowing there are people out there who love her. It might eventually help her to change her mind. No matter what happens that love will be there and the world will be a little better for it. In summary, (how does one summarize rambling?): Give yourself to whatever limit you think you can. Do not hold back. Do not be afraid of the hurt and pain. If you hold back anything the person in need will see right through. Do not analyse the person; they probably get enough of that already. Learn to love and share your innermost feelings. It's hard but the learning is worth the effort. Above all, be true to yourself and let the other person see within you. I realize that this has been somewhat incoherent and rambling but I've not really sorted out my own feelings. I read this newsgroup in hope that I'll gain some insight. One good article is worth all the other crap. Thanks to those who try to keep this group alive. I, too, have been called: The eternal optimist and the incorrigible romantic (by my friend) Steve Swift ..microsof!fluke!swifty
donchin (04/20/83)
#R:mit-eddi:-10900:uiucdcs:22100007:000:1006 uiucdcs!donchin Apr 18 20:33:00 1983 I'm not sure I agree. I've been in this situation you described. My friend was, similarly, moving on towards 18, and I kept her alive until she no longer needed me, again by the methods you describe. Yet, you say that the important thing is to drive home that you care about the persons life. That you want them to live. This may be a mistake. For a while, my friend was bound by a promise that she made to a friend. She promised her friend that, for the sake of the friend, she would stay alive. The friend had told her: "If you kill yourself, you will hurt me more than you can imagine." And, although it did keep her alive, it ruined completely her friendship. People should not stay alive out of a feeling of guilt, its not worth it. If a person is really suffering a nagging urge to be done with, then so be it. You can only do your best to make sure that this is clearly what the person wants. Human life should not be held in such high esteem that the human character is sacrificed to it.