spaf@gatech.UUCP (06/10/83)
It was pointed out to me that the examples I gave in my previous
article all involved an adolescent. Well, I don't view suicide
as a demonstration of maturity.
In particular, my personal philosphy does not admit that any
person is capable of really judging the worth or value of a
life. It is only one step from claiming that my life is
without value to proclaiming that your life is worthless.
If I am without hope, perhaps I should also help do away with
others I view as hopeless? I believe that a sign of
true humanity is valuing all life as something special.
I cannot judge the value of my own life, even when it seems
to be going pretty rotten. I have effects on many others,
like ripples in a pool, and I cannot tell what changes I make
for good or ill. Neither can I judge the value of any other life,
be it of a baby with birth defects or an old person who can
no longer care for himself/herself.
Suicide is a highly emotional subject. If you have had a close
friend or relative succumb to such an act (or consider it yourself)
I believe it alters your perspective somewhat. I do not
consider suicide a normal act, and I believe it is ethically wrong.
A separate question is what do we (as society) do about suicides
and potential suicides? The question of laws and treatment, of
what do we do to failed attempts, is a much more complex
question. I remember reading an article in the newspaper about
a police officer in Buffalo who shot a man to keep him from
stabbing himself to death. Is that the kind of extreme we
should allow or even encourage? I don't think I want to
go into the whole subject just now.
In summary, then: I believe suicide is a moral wrong. What
we do as a society to prevent and deal with suicide attempts
is another question, don't you think?
--
"The soapbox of Gene Spafford"
Spaf @ GATech (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech @ UDel-Relay (ARPA) School of ICS
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!spaf (uucp) Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf Atlanta, GA 30332woods@hao.UUCP (06/11/83)
Gene -- you are twisting my words all around and putting in meaning that was not there. > It was pointed out to me that the examples I gave in my previous > article all involved an adolescent. Well, I don't view suicide > as a demonstration of maturity. Neither do I. It implies desperation, not maturity. The point is, no matter how screwed up, and adult has the right to make that decision about his own life. You cannot force your own moral values on another *adult*, no matter how messed up you perceive him to be, which brings up your next point..... > In particular, my personal philosphy does not admit that any > person is capable of really judging the worth or value of a > life. It is only one step from claiming that my life is > without value to proclaiming that your life is worthless. That is a *huge* step. You might as well leap across the Grand Canyon! It is the same as the difference between making a moral decision for yourself, and making one for someone else. To me, that is the key issue here -- I call it Falwell-itis, the attempt or desire of a person or group to impose their morals on others. I will *always* take exception to that, even when discussing extreme subjects like suicide. (now you can tell how I feel about abortion, drug laws, etc. as well!). If you see this as a "small" step, I hope you never get into any positions of power, at least over me. GREG {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!brl-bmd | harpo!seismo | menlo70} !hao!woods
spaf@gatech.UUCP (06/11/83)
I'm afraid some of what I'm saying is not coming across clearly
due to the limited bandwidth of this medium.
I believe that suicide is a moral wrong, and an act that can
and (in some ways should be) prevented. At no time do I claim
that there is any particular right of society to *force* anyone
not to commit suicide -- that's why I tried to separate the
issues of morality from what society does about the subject.
Morality is defined personally, and societal ethics are determined
by the members of that society based on their morals. There
are two separate issues to discuss here, and I was *only* addressing
the morality question of suicide.
If I were to know of someone who were trying to commit suicide,
I would probably try to talk them out of it or have them seek
professional help. I'm not sure just how forceful I might be
in preventing them from carrying through. That's a separate
question from my belief that suicide is wrong. That separate
question is one of how "right" do I believe it to be to
interfere in another person's exercise of free choice?
That is a subject I'm not sure I want to discuss over the network --
it is just too complex and involves too many special cases.
Please don't accuse me of twisting words. I'm not trying to
convert anyone, nor am I trying to prove anything. I was trying
to express an opinion based on experience. If you don't agree,
fine. I especially resent being compared to Falwell, even if
indirectly; anybody who knows me would find it rather absurd.
Falwell and other idiots are too quick to condemn things they
don't agree with and compare them to bad examples (like the devil).
If you want, we can discuss the moral "rightness" of suicide, or
we can discuss the civil "right" to suicide (there is no such
thing as a natural "right"). Please don't get the two confused.
--
"The soapbox of Gene Spafford"
Spaf @ GATech (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech @ UDel-Relay (ARPA) School of ICS
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!spaf (uucp) Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf Atlanta, GA 30332swatt@ittvax.UUCP (06/13/83)
"Moral right" clearly depends on what system of ethics you're talking about. The vast majority of western ethical systems have condemned suicide. This has been true from Plato to the present day with a few exceptions. Eastern systems have not been so universal. I am generally ignorant of eastern religions, but in Shintoist/Buddhist Japan, suicide was not only a right; in some circumstances it was a duty. In the practical sense, people have the "moral right" to do anything they please that society is either unable or unwilling to effectively prohibit. If you thought someone were suicidal, would you have them committed, or forcibly prevent them in some other way? You can't dodge this question unless you want to limit your notions of "moral right" to cover only your own life. If your concern is for the immortal soul of suicides, then you must believe they meet the judgment of a wisdom greater than yours. If your concern is for the happiness of people during their temporal lives, then you have to show that your proposed methods to reduce suicide aren't worse than the problem (such as the example given earlier of attempted suicide being a capital crime). Personally, I know of no way through the laws to reduce suicides that isn't several times more horrible. People who fail at suicide probably need help, not judgment. People who succeed are beyond either. There is a prayer that goes something like: Lord give me the strength to change those things that need changing, and the serenity to accept those things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. We go much to far today toward believing that everthing can be improved if only we spend enough money on the problem, or put the "right people" in charge. It unfortunately isn't so (sez me). The author of that prayer understood something many people today do not. - Alan S. Watt
woods@hao.UUCP (06/13/83)
Sorry, Gene, I honestly did not mean to offend you. The problem is, that
you cannot discuss whether suicide is morally right or wrong, *except for
yourself*. To me, it does not make sense to discuss whether someone
else's suicide is right. That is for them alone to determine. Whether it is
the best course of action for that person is another story.
Certainly, you *should* try to talk them out of it. Suicide is almost always
stupid (in my opinion), and talking doesn't hurt. Perhaps the suicidal person
just wants someone to talk them out of it, so they'll know someone cares.
What you can't do without interfering with their right to their own morailty,
is physically restrain them to prevent suicide.
GREG
{ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!brl-bmd | harpo!seismo | menlo70}
!hao!woodsrh@mit-eddi.UUCP (Randy Haskins) (06/24/83)
Pressure (or perception of pressure) causes people to be flakey. At MIT, we think that we have a lot of pressure. I have run into several people in my four years here who talked about suicide (including a sophomore girlfriend I aquired in my first month here. Boy, was I in over my head!!!), but none of them ever did it. Earlier this year, we did have a real suicide. It took everyone completely by suprise, because he seemed so well-adjusted, successful academically, etc. HE never talked about killing himself. My point is, people who talk about it don't really even want to try it, and it is generally accepted that most people who try it don't want to succeed; they're just crying for attention. Pardonez-moi l'insensitivite, but I think that people who talk about it are complete cowards. They want serious attention (like the kind attempted suicide usually gets) without having to face any danger. I've learned to disregard it, or if I know them well, tell them that they're full of bull-puckies. I've also found that telling someone (I used this on the first girlfriend) that if she tries to slash her wrists that I will stop her and then break her arms; that makes the person realize that suicide is not a game and that people can get hurt. I don't know that this would work on someone who really wanted to die; I've never met any people like that. All I've ever run into have been the self-pitying, snivling (sp?) types. Life's too short anyway; I'd never shorten it Randy