mwolf@yale-com.UUCP (Anne G. Wolf) (11/04/83)
Does a terminally ill patient have the right to commit suicide?
I recall a doctor who had often had to deal with terminally ill patients
saying that when caring for someone who was terminally ill, it was necessary
to choose between 3 ways of dealing with things, and that it was best if a
patient make it known to his or her family, while still mentally fit to do
so, which alternative was preferable. The 3 ways were:
1) Prolong life as much as possible
2) Maintain comfort as much as possible
3) Withdraw all medical treatment and let nature take its course.
According to this philosophy, a patient would certainly have the right to
ask that medication be withheld. However, I do not think that something which
a healthy person would require, such as food, would be withheld by this doctor.
Therefore, the right to suicide would depend on the method.
Incidentally, choosing could also involve some compromise between the ways,
and my choice if I were the patient would probably be a compromise between 1
and 2. Unless comfort were impossible, I probably wouldn't commit suicide.
Legally speaking, I recall a couple of different cases in which parents or
doctors tried to withhold food from extremely deformed infants. I remember,
specifically, the case of a doctor who had food withheld from his siamese twins,
because they were joined at the chest and would smother one another as they
grew. I do not remember whether he was permitted to let the twins starve.
The results of these cases (which I do not remember) would set the precedent
for the woman's case which is described in the article to which I am responding
My feelings about other people's right to suicide on this would depend on the
degree of unpleasantness of the patient's life. If there were constant pain
which could not be controlled by medication, I would permit suicide if the
desire to die was consistent for more than a week. Pain-controlling
medication here might include something which would be harmful in the long
term, such as a powerful and addictive narcotic. If the patient isn't
going to live long enough for the harmful effects to matter, short term relief
is more important. If the end was comfortable and the only problem was
that dieing was depressing, then I would probably prevent the patient from
doing herself in. I realize that this division is subjective. I cannot think
of an objective way to distinguish, and I certainly wouldn't be able to make
a law about this distinction.
Mary-Anne Wolf (decvax!yale-comix!mwolf)swatt@ittvax.UUCP (Alan S. Watt) (11/05/83)
The argument over "right to suicide" is pointless in the general case. Pragmatically, people have the "right" to do anything that is in their power to do, and not in your power to prevent. In the case of suicide, there is little you can threaten to serve as a deterrent; if they succeed, they are completely beyond you power. Even if they fail, it is unlikely that you can (or would wish to) do something unpleasant enough to dissuade them from another attempt. If the woman in question wants to make other people accomplices in her suicide (by not eating what they provide), then it is in their power to prevent her. But even in a 24-hour care facility, sufficiently determined patients can find means to kill themselves. I once listened to the story of a woman who had had a stroke and was paralyzed from the neck down, and attempted suicide with sleeping pills. She had to get the pills out a child-proof bottles by removing the cap with just her teeth. If the person is determined enough, nothing short of solitary confinement in a padded cell and a straight-jacket will prevent him/her from making a serious attempt. "Right" is the wrong concept under these conditions. What is really invovled here is: does society have the "obligation" to attempt to frustrate this person's intentions? If so, what are the limit of this obligation? - Alan S. Watt decvax!ittvax!swatt
rccall@dartvax.UUCP (11/06/83)
Of course you can't really prevent someone from committing suicide if it is within that person's power; but isn't the issue here one of whether a person can request death (i.e. by lethal injection, etc.) and have his request carried out?
braddy@houxl.UUCP (11/07/83)
About the doctor who had siamese twins joined so that they could not survive (I am assuming he was *sure* of this) and wanted to let them die: Had this happened to any "lower" species animal, I think there would be little question about killing them right away (by lethal injection (?)) and minimizing the pain for everyone. Apparently, tho, when we humans are involved, such a direct approach to euthanasia and suicide is controversial (at best) and considered hideous sin by some. Society should support its own members in situations like these; if the person clearly decides on a course of action, why should we make it difficult for them? E.g., Why must the paralyzed person who decides to die have to pry the lid off sleeping pills with their teeth? David Braddy..
andree@uokvax.UUCP (11/14/83)
#R:yale-com:-233700:uokvax:14400001:000:499 uokvax!andree Nov 10 20:20:00 1983 [Stoke up the furnance, mike. They stepped on my libertarian toes this time!] Of course a terminally ill patient has the right to commit suicide if they so wish. A perfectly healthy person has the exact same right. The governement has no right to interfere in my (or anybody else's) life, including when it ends. `Government' of course includes the actual government, right-wing christians, and left-wing RTL'ers. Feeling much less suicidal & homicidal, <mike "Cheer up, life is temporary" meyer
rccall@dartvax.UUCP (11/15/83)
Ah, but the government DOES interfere with when your life ends, Mike. You can't go to a doctor and ask him to give you a lethal injection -- and if you try [unsuccessfully] to kill yourself the government will lock you up.
andree@uokvax.UUCP (11/21/83)
#R:dartvax:-37400:uokvax:14400002:000:210 uokvax!andree Nov 18 10:08:00 1983 Yes, the government interferes with me. I didn't say it didn't; I said that it didn't have the RIGHT to interfere in my life. This of course includes the right for me to decide when my life is complete. <mike