mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (02/04/84)
Gene Spafford's article raises interesting points for me. It may be that the person doing it is afraid of facing the reality, but you should give them some credit for having the courage to do it. Many people out there die a slow death without ever commiting what you would call a suicide, and many do it the "macho" way (quoting John Lennon) using alcohol or drugs.
woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (02/06/84)
I don't think the "macho" way involves drugs! Real men stab themselves
through the heart, or in the true Japanese sense, rip their guts out with
a sharp knife (Seppuku). At the very least, they don't hang around for
any explanations afterwards! :-) (is that :-) really necessary in
this group???)
GREG
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!kpno | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!stcvax}
!hao!woodschuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/20/84)
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) says:
... but you should give them some credit for having the courage to
do it. Many people out there die a slow death without ever
commiting what you would call a suicide...
Suicide does not stem from courage, but from fear. When the fear of life
overrides the fear of death, suicide results. Suicide is therefore not the
home of the hero, but the dwelling of the ultimate coward: that person who
is afraid of themself.
We are all dying a slow death, for each moment we live we come one moment
closer to death. I don't see anything wrong with that. No matter how bad a
life may seem, it is better than the alternative, since the alternative is
no life. If you disagree with that, ask the survivors of the Holocaust or
Hiroshima whether they would prefer to be dead. I know that there have been
many times when I wished for death, but each time I found something
(anything) to live for. Anything, no matter how bad, is better than nothing
at all.
chuq
--
From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today?
What's it feel like to have not done it for 200 years?
204, if you count my marriage... --- woody allen, sleeperkarl@dartvax.UUCP (Karl Berry) (02/23/84)
No. It does take courage to commit suicide. Perhaps also a quality of not caring about anyone else very much. For everyone ( excuse me. Everyone I know. ) has friends, people who would be hurt ( some a lot, some much less. ) if (s)he killed (her)himself. Fear is perhaps not even such an important part. Not caring about people, not caring about ( or, more importantly, for ) yourself, or what the world has to offer would seem to be much more important in any such decision. Finally, it is just as reasonable to hope for a better life "next time around" as it is to think that nothing lies beyond death. To my knowledge, no evidence is around to support either claim. Unfortunately.
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/29/84)
It was mentioned to me in a letter that I should have declared that the
opinions I stated in my previous letter we mine. I had thought that it was
a rather obvious assumption, especially since I didn't cite my references.
Since it obviously wasn't obvious enough to certain people, here is my
official disclaimer:
My personal views that suicide is not a courageous act are simply that.
Mine. Not some famous person or expert. Mine. I take full responsibility
for them. (Hey, mincey, is this clear enough for you?). Despite some
attempts to the contrary, I still believe in them, and they evolved through
personal experience with the subject.
One reasonable clarification: I think Gordon was implying that because
depression was the major causitive agent of suicide, my thoughts were
incorrect. I think both views are compatible, because while depression (or
other agents) can cause the wish to die, it is only when the ingrained fear
of death is overcome that a suicide attempt occurs. This instinct can be
overriden in many ways, only one of which is the one I am familiar with.
I am **NOT** going to get into a feud with mincemeat on this topic, as much
as he seems to be baiting me to. The letter he sent me was a scathing
diatribe that not only attacked me personally (as well as my beliefs) but
was essentially incoherent (I think English is a third language to our
bilingual friend) and had a large number of misspellings as well. I felt
that a reply was neccessary (why, I don't know) where I explained in
further details my beliefs and in which I suggested humourously that if he
didn't believe me, he might attempt the act and report back as to whether I
was right. Evidently he can't take a joke, because I have now been attacked
again in public, both here and in mod.ber. Rather than attempt to reason
with this person (since it is fairly obvious it would be a worthless
attempt) I am now designating him a non-person, and I will attempt in the
future to simply pretend that he and his entries do not exist. I don't
think I'll miss much.
BTW, as to Gene's poll, I feel much the same about the mod.ber entries.
they are very unprofessional and insulting, and so I simply don't read
them. This is even more so because he stoops to his attacks an insults in a
very visible place on the net where it is essentially impossible for us to
defend ourselves (since many people will read his entries but not
net.suicide).
chuq
--
From the Citadel of the Autarch: Chuqui the Plaid
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui P.S. Nuke Wobegon!
You know, Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.north@down.UUCP (Professor X) (03/02/84)
I read recently that the majority of people who attempt suicide by jumping off a building or bridge and survive say that they regretted it the instant they jumped. Although there are execptions, suicide generally results from the LACK of self-determination, and consequent desperation. stephen c north