[net.suicide] misc. ramblings

mcm@ikonas.UUCP (Mike Mitchell) (09/13/85)

I'd like to know how other people get over the various humps in their lives.
Currently I'm questioning my reason for being, and haven't found any
answers I'll accept.  I'm sure other people must occasionly get into
this state of mind.

I don't have any dependents, and I never had.  I know at least a half-dozen
people in this area that could do my job as well or better than I can.
The only friends I have I made at work, and most of them now work somewhere
else and I don't see them very often.  I have no social life, because
I'm always fixing problems to stop customers from screaming.  The customer
is screaming because some one else sat on the problem for months, and now
we're way over a deadline.  I gave up a social life long ago when I went
for 2 degrees in four years while working part time.  My social skills are
nill, and I doubt that anyone would really want to associate with someone
whose work is his total life.  Someone called me a nerd at work today,
and I just realized it must be true.

I've heard that someone who attempts suicide is really looking for attention.
If that is true, why have I planned my own suicide in great detail, such that
it would look like an accident or a murder?  I don't want my suicide to
upset the few people that might care for me, whomever they are.

I'm sorry this has gone on for so long.  I hoped maybe letting out some
of my feelings would prevent me from wrapping my car around a tree.


	"Life - Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it" - Marvin

	"Oh lucy, it's a pity
	you don't understand.
	Everyday is a rerun
	and the laughter's always canned." - Weird Al

torek@umich.UUCP (Paul V. Torek ) (09/17/85)

In article <199@ikonas.UUCP> mcm@ikonas.UUCP (Mike Mitchell) writes:
>.  Someone called me a nerd at work today,
>and I just realized it must be true.

The question you have to ask now is, "do I LIKE being (what people generally
describe as) a nerd?"  If yes, no problem; if there's something you're missing
by being a "nerd" then -- well -- change.  (Easier said than done, of course.)

>I've heard that someone who attempts suicide is really looking for attention.
>If that is true, why have I planned my own suicide in great detail, such that
>it would look like an accident or a murder?  I don't want my suicide to
>upset the few people that might care for me, whomever they are.

Maybe you want attention but want this incompatible thing more?  Wanting 
attention is not just normal for humans, it makes sense:  getting
attention can be enjoyable.  Realizing that was -- allow me to bring my
own experience of long ago into this; it's the only handle I have on the
situation -- one* of the things that enabled me to see other ways out of an
unbearable life-pattern.

* The other was this:  suicide is a pretty radical measure.  As long as one
is considering radical measures...  there are lots of drastic ways of 
changing one's life -- abandoning the life you've built and starting afresh;
quite possibly some of them would be an improvement.  This willingness to
consider radical changes is something that is still with me.

Hope I'm not being utterly irrelevant.

>I'm sorry this has gone on for so long.  I hoped maybe letting out some
>of my feelings would prevent me from wrapping my car around a tree.

Maybe *admitting* those feelings is even more important than letting them 
out?  (Maybe not; it was for me.)

Paul V Torek, member, Dr. Ruth Fan Club

edh@sun.uucp (Edward Hunter) (09/17/85)

> I'd like to know how other people get over the various humps in their lives.
> Currently I'm questioning my reason for being, and haven't found any
> answers I'll accept.  I'm sure other people must occasionly get into
> this state of mind.
> 
> I don't have any dependents, and I never had.  I know at least a half-dozen
> people in this area that could do my job as well or better than I can.
> The only friends I have I made at work, and most of them now work somewhere
> else and I don't see them very often.  I have no social life, because
> I'm always fixing problems to stop customers from screaming.  The customer
> is screaming because some one else sat on the problem for months, and now
> we're way over a deadline.  I gave up a social life long ago when I went
> for 2 degrees in four years while working part time.  My social skills are
> nill, and I doubt that anyone would really want to associate with someone
> whose work is his total life.  Someone called me a nerd at work today,
> and I just realized it must be true.

Mike,
  I haven't noticed anyone respond to you (probably due to the wonders of 
modern mail).  Generally, I just observe what goes on around here
but your note reminds me alot of myself in some sense so I figured I
would throw in my two cents.  Occasionally, I wonder about my own
existence, although I'm still here so I guess that says something.  I
won't spend any time trying to convince you how empty the world
would be without you.  One thing I've learned is that life goes on
no matter what happens.  In the end the only person you have to
prove anything to is yourself.  When I was younger I used to thing
that I had to prove things to other people.  I soon discovered that
everyone else was busy trying to prove things to everyone else and
that seemed to be a waste of time.  Consequently, I recommend
starting to do things to prove to yourself that you should(can) exist from
day to day.  I recommend picking something that you want to do and
going out to do it.  (Not knowing your interests I won't try to
suggest anything.)  If you think you can convince someone else to
join you in whatever it is bring them along, however, don't let not
having someone stop you.  Eventually, either you will become bored
of this and figure I was crazy or you will have a collection of
things to do when you need something to do other than work.  These
will be the things you can do simply because you want to do them and
do not require to approval of anyone else.  A small victory for you
over the rest of the world.
  As far as work being your total life.  True it may fill all your
waking hours and that's fine if you enjoy it.  If you don't enjoy it
then something should change.  Either you can work less (I force
myself to take at least one day a week off) or in the worst case
quit and find a new job (not an easy task but an option).  As for
your nill social skills I can offer no advice (although the people
on net.singles will tell you at length what you should do if you
enjoy reading forty different descriptions of the same thing).  
  So that's it.  I could say more but I hate long replies.  If you
are interested I have more thoughts on the subject of life and why
we keep living it.  Just drop me a line.
-edh
P.S.
  I get over my humps by telling myself I refuse to be beaten.
Therefore each new day is a new challenge and each yesterday is
ancient history to be learned from or forgotten as the mood takes me.

dta@cpsc53.UUCP (Doug Anderson) (09/17/85)

> I'd like to know how other people get over the various humps in their lives.
> Currently I'm questioning my reason for being, and haven't found any
> answers I'll accept.  I'm sure other people must occasionly get into
> this state of mind.
> 
> I don't have any dependents, and I never had.  I know at least a half-dozen
> people in this area that could do my job as well or better than I can.
> The only friends I have I made at work, and most of them now work somewhere
> else and I don't see them very often.  I have no social life, because
> I'm always fixing problems to stop customers from screaming.  The customer
> is screaming because some one else sat on the problem for months, and now
> we're way over a deadline.  I gave up a social life long ago when I went
> for 2 degrees in four years while working part time.  My social skills are
> nill, and I doubt that anyone would really want to associate with someone
> whose work is his total life.  Someone called me a nerd at work today,
> and I just realized it must be true.
> 
> I've heard that someone who attempts suicide is really looking for attention.
> If that is true, why have I planned my own suicide in great detail, such that
> it would look like an accident or a murder?  I don't want my suicide to
> upset the few people that might care for me, whomever they are.
> 
> I'm sorry this has gone on for so long.  I hoped maybe letting out some
> of my feelings would prevent me from wrapping my car around a tree.
> 


	This sounds like me a couple of months ago so I know
	where your comming from.  

	For my two cents worth it sounds like it's time for a
	new job. I've always viewed life as being in three
	parts:

		1) work - 8 hours
		2) play - 8 hours
		3) sleep - 8 hours

	I don't know anyone that gets their full 8 hour quota
	of play or sleep and most end up spending 10 to 12
	hours a day at work.  If your not happy in any one of
	these three areas then its time for a major change.

	Is suicide the answer? I don't know. I look at that
	answer as abdicating in a chess game that you cant
	win.  My problem with that answer is that I'm too
	stupid to quit and I just try another gambit.

	Before taking the ultimate response, remember there is
	no turning back from suicide, why not trying to change
	jobs or living area or both.  What have you got to
	lose??  If that doesn't work you can always drop back
	to plan B.  The job I used to be involved in was
	totally controlled by the customer.  They ran us like
	dogs for 6 months and whatever we did was wrong.  Is
	that my fault. NO. I changed my outlook and it helped
	it may help you. 

	If changing your job does work then you are "still in
	the game" and if your in the game you always have a
	percentage chance of winning. what ever that means.

	I've always believed in burning as few bridges as
	possible. Suicide burns them all.  It is a legimate
	response to an impossible situation. Make sure your in
	that impossible situation before you make that
	response.  Try everything else first. After all, what
	have you got to lose?


	Doug Anderson


	While I'm an employee of AT&T I am not a spokesman for
	AT&T or any of its subsidaries.

davidl@tekig5.UUCP (David Levadie) (09/18/85)

Your problem is that like the vast majority of civilized humans, you have
been socialized from birth, to the point where you gather your self-esteem
from, and measure your worth by, the opinions of other people.  I.e., if
no one cares for you, and everyone disapproves of you, and you have no
friends, you are worthless and your life is of no value.  Such feelings
have no basis whatsoever in reason; they are entirely conditioned
reflexes which society, in the form of Mommy, school, and other degenerate
institutions, inculcates in children and adults as a mechanism for enforcing
"civilized" behaviour.  Ask yourself:  Why do people who have committed a
crime and gotten away with it, turn themselves in?  Because they feel
guilty and want to be punished.  Why do they feel this way?  Because they've
been TAUGHT to.  If you commit a crime and don't feel guilty, society
deems you a "sociopath" - actually, what has happened is that the
socialization process of inculcating guilt didn't work.  In your case, as
in the case of most suicides, society with its despicable mechanisms for
destroying self-esteem and making people feel worthless without social
approval, can actually kill innocent people - and there is no redress.

It is possible to desocialize yourself to the point where you aren't
self-destructive.  You can learn, through desperate but rewarding struggle,
not to care whether anyone approves of you, and to measure your worth by your
own standards, which should be higher than anyone else's anyway. Furthermore,
you already know how to stay out of trouble, so you don't need to worry about
being imprisoned for sociopathic behaviour.  I hate lecturing people,
but I hate this maneating civilization even worse, and am even more sick
of its impersonal murders - and somebody out there seems like they're asking
for help, so I'm writing this with the idea that perhaps it will prevent
another of "society"'s murders.  My good fortune was to have been subjected
to, and therefore learned to be indifferent to, society's rejection and
disapproval early in my childhood, before the socialization process had
taken hold, so that I could learn to deal with it before it could produce
guilt - or suicide.

You didn't need a reason to be born - why should you need a reason, or a
justification, or an excuse, for going on living?  How can you ever be worth
any more, or less, than you were at birth?

barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (09/18/85)

I used to think about suicide on and off when I was a teenager.  In those
days my life wasn't under my own control.  Between my parents and social
expectations, my main freedom was in the sphere of my own imagination.  I
was stuck with finding potential friends among those my same age, and
found very few.

When I got to be an adult, economically independent, living in my own home,
I stopped feeling suicidal.

Apparently you have accepted a world in which you are not free.  Not free
to look for friends.  Not free to get another job.  Not free to be happy.
I think you should question your assumption that you are enslaved to your
work, to your disgruntled clients; that you need "skills" to make friends.
I think you should look around for a headhunter and try to find a job in
which you won't work more than 50 hours a week.  I think you should decide
if anything else interests you besides your job--and try to get some other
enjoyable activities, if only giving the benefit of your experience to
Special Interest Groups.  I think you should decide you have a right to
pursue happiness (the Declaration of Independence says you do), rather
than merely a right to be a workaholic or to commit suicide so secretly
that no one will know.

By the way, I've lost one friend who was murdered and one friend who died in
a household accident, both when they were despairing.  I know neither death
was technically suicide, but both of them ended up depressing *me* for
years.  Because I'd never be able to be with that person again.  Because
that person had died in pain.  Because that person had died while having
given up on life and I'd never see him happy again.  Even if you fool your
friends into thinking it's an accident, it won't make them any less unhappy.

Groups of loners who seem quite tolerant of unsociable people include SF
fandom, wargamers, and computer hackers.  You might consider looking
around for nearby conventions.  Alternately, perhaps you should try to get
into hobbies mundanes have decided ARE suicidal.  Skydiving, SCUBA diving,
witchcraft, D&D, fugu eating....Either way, the way to find friends is to
find out who YOU are and what YOU like--and then look for others who
resonate with that, not to change yourself.  Why would anyone want a friend
who's fond of his counterfeit self, not his real self?

--Lee Gold

jsl@potomac.UUCP (John Labovitz) (09/18/85)

> I know at least a half-dozen
> people in this area that could do my job as well or better than I can.

So what?  You're still doing it.  If you enjoy it then it doesn't matter if
someone can do it better.  If you don't like your work, then quit and go
somewhere where you do like it.  Contrary to popular belief, it is possible
to enjoy a job.

> I have no social life, because
> I'm always fixing problems to stop customers from screaming.  The customer
> is screaming because some one else sat on the problem for months, and now
> we're way over a deadline.

Why don't you talk to someone and get things organized so that you don't
*have* to fix the problems?  This sounds like something wrong with the
company, not anything wrong with you.

> I gave up a social life long ago when I went
> for 2 degrees in four years while working part time.

You ``gave up'' a social life??  Why didn't you just temporarily suspend
it?  You can get back into a ``social life'' relatively easily (probably
easier that getting a degree :-) [although I wouldn't know -- I don't have a
degree :=)]

> My social skills are
> nill, and I doubt that anyone would really want to associate with someone
> whose work is his total life.  Someone called me a nerd at work today,
> and I just realized it must be true.

So do the obvious -- stop being a nerd.  *Go out,* anywhere.  Talk to people
that look interesting.  Talk to people that don't look interesting.  I find
it easier to talk to people that I don't know at all.  The least that can
happen is that the people won't talk to you.  ``Social skill'' is bullshit.
Is that something you learn in a class?  [``Welcome to Social Skills 101.'']
Talking about classes -- take some courses in things that you don't know
anything about, or things you've always been interested in but never found
time to do.  Most places have night classes in random subjects.  The main
reason to take these is to learn about whatever it is (of course), but you
also get to meet people who are interested in the same thing.

> I've heard that someone who attempts suicide is really looking for attention.
> If that is true, why have I planned my own suicide in great detail, such that
> it would look like an accident or a murder?  I don't want my suicide to
> upset the few people that might care for me, whomever they are.

Maybe you're bored.  When I was in high school, I used to think about
suicide (not too seriously, tho) mainly because it was interesting to think
about, and relieved the boredom.  The more organized/bizarre the suicide,
the most interesting it was.
-- 
John Labovitz		..!{rlgvax,seismo}!bdmrrr!potomac!jsl
--
"The aspic -- it's sooooooo divine!"	-- Dinner at Eight

doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (09/19/85)

No purpose in life?  Sounds like how I felt back in high school.

Some homespun philosophy I've developed over the years since then:

The problem is *not* that there is no purpose in your existence.

The problem is that you think there is *supposed* to be.  You have
been conditioned by a largely religious society to believe that your
existence is part of a Plan.  But (if you're like me) you aren't
religious, and don't subscribe to any of the Plans put forward.

In that case, quit looking for a Plan.  For those of us who aren't
religious, there is no Plan.  Contrary to appearances, most people
do *not* have (nor do they need) any "purpose in life".

Look.  If you happen to win a million bucks in the state lottery, you
wouldn't think "There must be some cosmic reason that I had such good
fortune."

The same goes for life.  There is *no particular reason* that you are
alive today.  You just got lucky.  Don't look the gift horse in the
mouth.  Take it and make the most of it however you see fit.

My personal goal in life is very simple: to have as satisfying and
enjoyable a life as possible short of shafting my "fellow man".

This doesn't mean I became a beachcomber, although a few people would
find beachcombing to be to their liking.  After all, even if you win a
million bucks in the lottery you still have to pay taxes -- very few
things in life (including life itself) are 100% good or 100% bad.  I
still work to get money to support myself and my wife, and to pay for
my computers, sports cars, airplane, etc.  On the face of it, a fairly
conventional lifestyle (although perhaps a bit "yuppie" :-)   But I
am *very* picky about having enjoyable working conditions, and I cut
back my working hours to 40 hours a week so that I've got *time* to
enjoy my toys.  I don't live to work; I work to LIVE.

Bottom line:  quit worrying about having a purpose in life.  Some people
have one but most don't.  You can enjoy the life you have just fine
without one.

It's YOUR life, dammit.  Take charge and run it to suit your own self.
If you *like* whatever you're doing now, then keep doing it.  If you
don't, then *stop it* and start doing whatever you *do* like.


P.S. -- How do I get by the bad times?  I always remember that I am
ultimately in control of my life.  If everything goes to heck, and it
looks like I'll spend the rest of my life trying to straighten things
out, I have a "plan of last resort": disappear, assume a new identity,
and start a new life elsewhere.

Just knowing that I always have a way out is a heck of a big comfort.
-- 
Doug Pardee -- CalComp -- {calcom1,savax,seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!terak!doug

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (09/26/85)

One area regarding sucide which I have never seen discussed anywhere is
that a person who has determined to suicide must be a very valuable
resource. It is hard to get someone to give up their life in order to do
something that can't be done any other way; it takes a lot of
conditioning so that a soldier will perform a necessary act though there
is a high probablility that he will be killed doing it, or for a
religious person to become a martyr to their cause.

If someone is going to kill themselves anyway, they can be most valuable
to any of many possible organizations, movements, or agencies by
performing some sort of "suicide mission", if they are stable and
rational enough to be capable of completing it. I'm sure this last
factor eliminates most candidates -- by definition, we have already said
that being suicidal does not allow you to be considered "rational". If
we can get around that, and admit that there are those who have
rationally decided that it is better to die than live, for whatever
reasons they might have, they could be convinced to conduct their
suicide in a manner that fills some other requirement. (Usual
motivations here would be financial payments to loved ones or the like.)

The traditional role, of course, is that of assassin. It is an old
truism that there is no way to prevent an assassination if the attacker
is willing to trade his/her life for that of the subject. Considering
the number of suicides, I am surprised that there are not more
assassination attempts than there are.

Will

jss@ihu1e.UUCP (Smith) (09/27/85)

I was away and missed the first part of this but here are a couple of
trueisms to chew on (or just more ramblings.)

When your dead you are dead for a long time.  

The difference between wanting to live and wanting to die is simple.  You
just look to the feture.  If you think that things are now as bad as they
can get, then they can only get better.  When somthing good comes your way 
make the most of it.  

In any case the best advice is to go out and make things happen.  Some 
times just doing somthing differnt can add fun to your life.  Go out there
be daring, talk to strangers on the street, see a movie, invite some one to
dinner (even if it is your mother), do somthing you have never done before.

In short this is your chanve to have some fun, go out and look for it.
-- 
J. S. Smith AT&T IW

	There are lots of opinions around this place, but these 
	are mine and no one else's (pitty the poor soul if they 
	do share mine.)

"One size fits all", "On a clear day you can see forever", "Every thing I
tell you is a lie!"

eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (10/06/85)

> It is hard to get someone to give up their life in order to do
> something that can't be done any other way; it takes a lot of
> conditioning so that a soldier will perform a necessary act though there
> is a high probablility that he will be killed doing it, or for a
> religious person to become a martyr to their cause.
> 
> Will

I disagree with this and I know miltary people who would agree with me.

The reason I am posting this that several weeks ago [I've been travelling]
I read an article in the SJ Mercury News which original came of the
LA TIMES about a Japanese woman who took her two kids into the sea in an
act of suicide.  The kids died but the woman lives to face a murder trial.
The defense and the question raise by the article was cultural differences
where the act bordered on an acceptable but unspeakable practice.  I was
wondering if there was an outcome to the trial, if the woman was found
guilt of murder, and so forth.

--eugene

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (10/19/85)

In article <1180@ames.UUCP> eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) writes:
>> It is hard to get someone to give up their life in order to do
>> something that can't be done any other way; it takes a lot of
>> conditioning so that a soldier will perform a necessary act though there
>> is a high probablility that he will be killed doing it, or for a
>> religious person to become a martyr to their cause.
>> Will
>
>I disagree with this and I know miltary people who would agree with me.
>
Well, I'm not sure why you disagree, but this is not just my personal
viewpoint. For a recent reference supporting this view, watch the PBS TV
series "WAR", a commentary by Gwynne Dyer (I think I have that name
right). The second episode, on basic training (using the Marines as an
example) explicitly stated this sentiment. In fact, it was claimed that
instilling such conditioning was the main purpose of Basic, and that it
is so done in other armed forces also. I have read the equivalent for
years in various books, also.

As for the example of religious martyrs, is there any question that
religious training, or upbringing in a culture with a religious
orientation, is NOT a long process of conditioning?

Or is your disagreement with the word "hard" in the above paragraph?
Are you saying that it is no big deal? That it is relatively easy to do?
(So that you actually agree with the conditioning aspect, but hold that
it can be done easily? This would counter my point about the value of a
suicidal person, then, I accept -- if you can easily churn out suicide
squads via simple and quick methods, they are of little individual
value. I don't think that this is the case, though -- I think the
process is always going to be long and expensive.)

I still hold by my view, then; need more arguments to convince me
otherwise.

Will