simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) (12/06/85)
The following is excerpted from discussion on suicide between Pat
Solomon and Simson L. Garfinkel. We have moved the discussion to
net.suicide with the hopes that other people will join in:
Simson:
>...(Started with a now-lost message that it takes a lot more courage
to kill one's self than not. A lot of suicides don't happen because
the individuals don't have the guts)
Pat:
+ So, you say courage is the vital element for a person contemplating
+ suicide? `Depressed people don't have the guts.' I believe I follow
+ your thinking, but I have a different conclusion.
+
+ "Courage implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or
+ extreme difficulty" -Webster's. To have "firmness of mind", resolution
+ a person has to feel that they have thoroughly examined the situation.
+ A person may suffer spells of depression often, but if they only dwell
+ on the sadness, not thinking through the problems that provoke it, they
+ aren't going to feel very resolute about taking such a final step. And
+ that's really too bad because thinking through the problem rationally
+ could more likely be the key to finding a positive solution. How many
+ times has something ever troubled you, and when you really thought about
+ it, the root was quite different than what you might have imagined?
Simson replys:
Perhaps, but I am reminded about ``hesitation marks'' which would-be
and actual suicide victims (look at that word) leave behind on their
body. Like the person who tries to slash his wrists but doesn't cut
deep enough the first few times, or the person who tries to shoot
himself but misses and shoots the wall a few times. I think that these
are primary people who have not thought out the situation.
I think that the people likely to kill themselves are those who sit
down, realize their alternatives and decide that death is the best
(and definitely easiest) way out. If a person is facing massive
penalties, like prison, blackmail or a terribly unhappy life,
suicide might even be a low-cost way out.
I tend to believe, although this is more based on a reading of
literature than actual experiences (though there have been some) is
that when people try to kill themselves in desperation, without
thinking over what they are doing, they often do not succeed. Its as
if the point of the suicide attempt is to be around afterwards. This
would argue for suicide being the calm, rational approach for those
with the guts.
How do other people feel? mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) (12/09/85)
I may be totally wrong on this, but I get the impression that there are two
types of suicide attempters: those who've thought it out (and developed
reasons that are in their minds rational) who almost never fail, and the
majority, who haven't thought it out much and are trying more to get
attention (I'm not trying to speak in a derogatory way here) and who don't
intend to actually kill themselves.
If this classification is at all accurate, probably the vast majority of
teenagers who attempt suicide fit into the latter class.
To answer the question, I think it takes a lot of courage to actually decide
that things aren't going to improve and they're unbearable now. There is
less courage involved in the latter class, as the person (at least
subconsciously, and often consciously) doesn't intend to die.
Comments?
-Dragon
--
UUCP: ...seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc or if that doesn't work:
...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crgsimsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) (12/09/85)
In article <393@cad.cs.cmu.edu>, mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes: > I may be totally wrong on this, but I get the impression that there are two > types of suicide attempters: those who've thought it out (and developed > reasons that are in their minds rational) who almost never fail, and the > majority, who haven't thought it out much and are trying more to get > attention (I'm not trying to speak in a derogatory way here) and who don't > intend to actually kill themselves. > This distinction makes a good deal of sense to me. It also explains why something that is so incredibly easy to do (namely, killing oneself), is so often botched by people who try to do it -- they didn't really want to kill themselves in the first place, they just wanted attention. So why do people say that it takes more courage to keep on living and that killing onesself is the easy way out?
jp@faron.UUCP (Jeffrey Picciotto) (12/10/85)
> So why do people say that it takes more courage to keep on living and > that killing onesself is the easy way out? Probably because people view suicide as a form of running away from a problem. Since running away from a problem is considered the 'easy' (ie cowardly) way out, so is suicide. --Jeff ...!linus!faron!jp d3unix!jp@mitre-bedford.arpa
pamp@bcsaic.UUCP (pam pincha) (12/13/85)
In article <52@mit-amt.MIT.EDU> simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) writes: >In article <393@cad.cs.cmu.edu>, mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes: > >So why do people say that it takes more courage to keep on living and >that killing onesself is the easy way out? One reason is that sometimes it takes more cuorage to face up to one's mistakes, inadaquacies, etc.,etc.,etc.... than it does to take the "ultimate"way to run away.
pamp@bcsaic.UUCP (pam pincha) (12/13/85)
In article <406@bcsaic.UUCP> pamp@bcsaic.UUCP (pam pincha) writes: >In article <52@mit-amt.MIT.EDU> simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) writes: >>In article <393@cad.cs.cmu.edu>, mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes: >> >>So why do people say that it takes more courage to keep on living and >>that killing onesself is the easy way out? > > One reason is that sometimes it takes more cuorage to face up to courage >one's mistakes, inadaquacies, etc.,etc.,etc.... than it does to >take the "ultimate"way to run away. >
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (12/13/85)
I find the current tone of the discussion in this group disturbing. The
gist of what I'm reading seems to be there's something macho about a
successful suicide while those who try and fail are spineless wimps. That
has to be the stupidest attitude I've encountered in some time and I hope
I'm misinterpreting it.
In the course of earning a Master's degree in clinical psychology I spent
four years with the Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center as a crisis
telephone counselor and shift supervisor, among other things. During that
time I talked with hundreds of people who were considering suicide. Some
of those people were holding guns in their hands while I talked with them.
More than once I heard the gun go off and the phone drop. On a number of
occasions I sent paramedic teams out to rescue drug overdose attempters.
They weren't always in time.
You can make all the arbitrary categorizations of suicidal people you want,
but, when it comes down to an individual case, every one is unique. To
label those who succeed or fail as cowardly or brave as a group is foolish
at best and grossly insensitive at worst.
I've listened to a lot of stories from suicidal people. Many of them
seemed rational and thought out, but it was my job to try to keep them
alive and I did. Even knowing the stories behind the attempts I would
never have the gall to label any of the people I spoke with cowardly or
brave. I would suspect anyone who felt compelled to do so in ignorance of
the facts probably has some serious problems of their own.
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Geniuses are people so lazy they
Santa Monica, CA 90405 do everything right the first time.
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollomberwh@aesat.UUCP (Russ Herman) (12/14/85)
> I may be totally wrong on this, but I get the impression that there are two > types of suicide attempters: those who've thought it out (and developed > reasons that are in their minds rational) who almost never fail, and the > majority, who haven't thought it out much and are trying more to get > attention (I'm not trying to speak in a derogatory way here) and who don't > intend to actually kill themselves. > > Monica Ciello > cad.cs.cmu.edu!mjc By no means totally wrong, but not totally right either. There's a large third category: those who haven't thought it out, but in a fit of depression or anger, possibly with the disinhibiting effects of alcohol or other drugs, make their attempt. As you can guess, the probability of success in a particular instance is totally unpredictable. It has to do as much with convenient availability of high-lethality means as any other factor. By the way, the first category's size is difficult to estimate. They often arrange their deaths to appear accidental. They do not call suicide prevention centres. However, even for the "rational" suicide, success is not assured. There is some primitive urge to life that often sabotages their actions. -- ______ Russ Herman / \ {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh @( ? ? )@ ( || ) The opinions above are strictly personal, and ( \__/ ) do not reflect those of my employer (or even \____/ possibly myself an hour from now.)
simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) (12/15/85)
In article <57@ttidcc.UUCP>, hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: > I find the current tone of the discussion in this group disturbing. The > gist of what I'm reading seems to be there's something macho about a > successful suicide while those who try and fail are spineless wimps. That > has to be the stupidest attitude I've encountered in some time and I hope > I'm misinterpreting it. Definately, I'm sure that the discussion has gotten out of hand. If, in your opinion, suicide can never be justified on psychological reasons (e.g.: you're depressed, or your family has died, or something like that) can it be justified on physical ones, like you have an incurable disease (something quite common these days with AIDS and all) or you have a physical handicap? (I know that these two cases are not the same). Just asking... Simson
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (12/17/85)
In article <57@mit-amt.MIT.EDU> simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel) writes: >In article <57@ttidcc.UUCP>, hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: >> I find the current tone of the discussion in this group disturbing. The >> gist of what I'm reading seems to be there's something macho about a >> successful suicide while those who try and fail are spineless wimps. That >> has to be the stupidest attitude I've encountered in some time and I hope >> I'm misinterpreting it. > >Definately, I'm sure that the discussion has gotten out of hand. Definitely what? I'm misinterpreting or the attitude is stupid? >If, in your opinion, suicide can never be justified on psychological reasons >(e.g.: you're depressed, or your family has died, or something like that) >can it be justified on physical ones, like you have an incurable disease >(something quite common these days with AIDS and all) or you have a physical >handicap? (I know that these two cases are not the same). I didn't say suicide can never be justified on psychological grounds. Never is a word I seldom use in any case, and using it here would create the situation I was criticizing: Judging people in ignorance of the facts. In the end, those who live and those who die all make their own decisions, based on their perceptions of their situations. To hang labels such as "justified", "cowardly", etc., on any individual, even with intimate knowledge of their circumstances, is presumptuous in the extreme. To put such labels on a group of people in absence of any facts about them is unconscionable and says more about the labeler than the people labeled. That is the point I'm trying to make. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp(+)TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe