[net.suicide] How do you deal with discussion of suicide?

ansok@spp3.UUCP (Gary Ansok) (02/19/86)

I have an acquaintance (someone I usually see once or twice a month)
who I was talking to the other night and came away rather disturbed.
He has been unemployed for several months after being laid off when
his company closed that office.  Apparently his unemployment payments
run out at the end of the month, and when I asked him what he might
be doing after that, he replied, "I don't think I'll be doing anything
after that."

His attitude is that if the world wants him, then it will provide him
with a job, and if he doesn't find a job, then the world doesn't want
him.  He has been jobhunting in his field (business programming)
without success, but refuses to consider changing careers.  He also
won't seek help ("I don't need to *talk to someone*, I need a job").
He sounds like he's logically thought this out but rationalized away
all possible solutions except one.  I went through that myself when
I had problems in school but I still don't know how to get through it.

What should I do?  What can I do?

		Gary Ansok
		{ucbvax,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4}!trwrb!trwspp!spp3!ansok

fine@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew J Fine) (02/23/86)

In article <> ansok@spp3.UUCP (Gary Ansok) writes:
>I have an acquaintance (someone I usually see once or twice a month)
>who I was talking to the other night and came away rather disturbed.
>He has been unemployed for several months after being laid off when
>his company closed that office.

A general rule of thumb for looking for a job ( entry level ) is to keep
looking 1 month for every 2 thousand dollars of salary sought.  Of course,
this doesn't apply to senior executives, but it clearly is too soon to
give up just because he looked for only several months.  

>Apparently his unemployment payments
>run out at the end of the month, and when I asked him what he might
>be doing after that, he replied, "I don't think I'll be doing anything
>after that."
>
There is a lot he could try after that.  First, he could move himself ( and/or
his family ) to a different region or state that may be less economically 
depressed.  If he's young enough and in fair shape, he can try the military
(enlisted wo/ degree, officer with) who will advance him strictly because of
the effort he puts in, without politics.  He could try teaching school (high,
vocational, community college). He can earn money by tutoring people who want
to know how to program for business. He can sell computers to business people
and train them in the proper usage. Endless variety,even in his own field.

>His attitude is that if the world wants him, then it will provide him
>with a job, and if he doesn't find a job, then the world doesn't want
>him.

Cow chips. Nearly half the humans in the country are officially considered not
in the labor force (they don't count home-makers), and they do a *damn good
job* making sure our future generation is halfway civilized. You have to tell
him that the world is not the most important thing, it is him, ultimately.
Gosh, if we all conceived children for the express purpose of serving Earth,
we would have world government by now!!!  Children are made by love, not by
duty! The "world" doesn't "want" anyone! It's a hostile universe out there, the
only way to survive is to carve a piece out of it and make it your own. There
is such a thing as destiny, but it is a gift from no one but oneself. Nobody
held a grand assembly deciding to bring him into the world to serve a specific
purpose.  It take two people, one male and one female, with a lot of hopes and
a lot of fears, who are absolutely uncertain as to what the future will bring
for thier child, but who want a child so they can love him/her and raise 
him/her to take care of him/her-self. THAT TAKES GUTS! By taking the coward's
way out, he dishonors the same humanity he apparently holds in high regard.

>He has been jobhunting in his field (business programming)
>without success, but refuses to consider changing careers.  He also
>won't seek help ("I don't need to *talk to someone*, I need a job").

He sought out help already. He talked you *you*, didn't he?  He's making a plea
for help, and fortunately for him he has picked you. You cared enough to get 
some advice, but don't just rely on the net.
  
If he won't talk to a professional, try this: you talk to the professional and
act as an inbetweener without his knowledge. Don't quote Freud or Jung at him,
that will only  alienate him further. Instead, start helping him work out
his attitudes and actions, and "contract out" for psychological opinions.

If he has a religion, try to get a minister, priest, or rabbi to talk with him
in private after he attends a sermon.  Another option: if he wants a job, get
him to work for you.

Simple jobs at first, the pay can just be barter or more time with you to work
out his feelings, or a night out with the boys and you pay his bar bill.
Chances are that if he is unemployed by reason of being fired, he has problems
with work habits, deference, or social skills.  If you find something wrong,
you can tutor him in these things. If he was unemployed by reason of a RIF but
through no fault of his own, the likely cause is his interviewing style. Try
drilling him on that by playing the hostile recruiter. And by all means, keep
him humping away on his job search, and try to make him realise that he has
more options in his field than he thinks he has.  By your description, he also
sounds young.  In that case, retraining in a different field may be entirely
feasable. Ask him about hobbies in his childhood, or any other activities that
gave him pleasure.  These can be keys to new fields where he could find a 
niche, but that will take time.

>He sounds like he's logically thought this out but rationalized away
>all possible solutions except one.

Rationalization is not the same as logical thinking. Suicide is an inherently
illogical action.  About the only cases of suicide that I thought were 
justifiable were during wartime, when a person died rather than tell the enemy
vital secrets under torture. You have to convince him that he needs to think
through his other options, and go over them point by point in a logical 
fashion without feelings getting in the way.  If he's actually making plans and
giving things away, he's started his destruct countdown. In which case you may
have to not let him out of your sight, even tie him up and commit him if you
catch him trying.

>I went through that myself when
>I had problems in school but I still don't know how to get through it.

Congratulations!  I am proud of you!  And I am being sincere in my praise, pal.
You have survived those conditions up to this point, and have renounced suicide
as an option.  You may admit you still have problems, but at least you have a
handle on the situation. That proves you have enough maturity to handle your
problem, and even his. I've had two parents who have tried, and I even thought
about it several times myself when I was in my late teens ( I'm 23 now ). There
is no real answer in life but to see it through, that is the way you get 
through it.

>
>What should I do?  What can I do?
>
>		Gary Ansok
>		{ucbvax,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4}!trwrb!trwspp!spp3!ansok

Try. Care. That's all you can do. Don't blame yourself if you can't turn your
friend around. Don't condemn yourself if he kills himself no matter what you
do. If it happens, it's not your fault, it's his, he was a coward. Don't even
feel obliged to run his life to save him, I made suggestions only if you feel
you have the time, energy, and resources to follow them. Keep tabs on him, and
if it gets much worse, you've got to get him to professional help, even if you
have to drag him there. If you catch him in the act, stop him, keep him 
immobilized, and call the police.

Official Disclaimer:
I make no claims on knowing the best way, since I am only a layman where 
psychology is concerned.  I can only give advice based on my own experience,
and I make no guarantees that what I say is right or will even work. I am not
qualified to give professional help, nor do I attempt to do so. Nor do I 
attempt to represent USENET or any other organization, including my employers,
in giving forth my option. So please, Gary and anyone else, do not sue me for
posting.

Best of luck, Gary. Tell us all how it works out.


Andrew Jonathan Fine.