fcarmody@udenva.UUCP (Prince Caspian) (03/11/86)
This discussion of painless suicide methods has gotten unnerving to me.
I know there was a *big* discussion recently on "should it be legal?"
Two points:
1) While it remains an opinion, I and (I believe) many others hold suicide
as an act should be illegal and prevented at any cost. For me, this
is also a "case 2" opinion.... (I.E. opinion held by God=LAW... See my
disclaimer....)
2) This opinion is held by most if not all world governments. Suicide
*is* illegal and should be discouraged. It is also likely to remain
illegal so far as I am aware.
3) Net policy forbids both requests and responses as to information
on *how to perform illegal acts*. (I am not trying to net.admin
here. See below. For now, please take it that I am *stating a fact*
and leave it at that....)
4) The fact that the poster who started all this (sorry if I can't
remember your name at the moment) requested info on an illegal act
(painless suicide) without a smiley etc. represents some form
of *intent*. Intent to suicide should not be bypassed.
The "illegality" as far as the net policy violation represented by
his request should of course be ignored. As most of the people
in this group are no doubt aware, *this was a cry for help*....
5) It is my considered opinion that some poster(s) have been
positively *cruel* in actually offering this person suggestions
as to painless methods. That seems tantamount to saying,
"If you really want to, go ahead....here's how!"
Whoever you are, you have not only spit in the face of net policy,
but also *at least* severely shocked a potential suicide.
*THINK: Someone may now be *dead* because of your "advice".
I don't really care whether you thought you were making a joke or
not....*you can't afford to assume they weren't serious in
the intent to end their life!*
I believe there is an apology due somewhere....
I also hope to God the original poster (or anyone else...)
didn't take that advice.... are you still there?
If not, may your "counselor" share the same cell in Sheol....
Keywords:
--
- Prince Caspian of Narnia, AKA Francis X. Carmody
Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody}
OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody
The above opinions are my own, noone else in the known galaxy should be held responsable, except in the rare cases where they coincide with the opinions of Almighty God... In the above case, any disagreement with said opinions should be refferred directly to Him....
:wsean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) (03/13/86)
I someone says to me "How do you rob a store?", and I say "Go into
the store with a gun and demand money.", am I breaking the law? Some
things are so obvious that iterating them here on the net cannot
possibly be illegal. What about freedom of speach?
Sean
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Casey UUCP: sean@ukma.uucp CSNET: sean@uky.csnet
University of Kentucky ARPA: ukma!sean@anl-mcs.arpa
Lexington, Kentucky BITNET: sean@ukma.bitnet
"Who's `we', sucker?"mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) (03/13/86)
Someone who really wants to commit suicide doesn't need the advice of the
net; you can't blame the net if someone did kill himself as a result of that
advice. Yes, it's questionable posting ethics; yes, it is illegal in *some*
places; yes, people should be doing other things in addition to answering
the question (like actually trying to help the person get to the root of his
problems). But the determined suicide will do it anyway, and the person
who's not really sure if he wants to die (consciously or subconsciously) will
not follow advice on lethal methods.
Besides, nothing has reached this site that wouldn't be obvious to anyone who
thought about the problem for five minutes. Maybe we've missed all the
really evil posts?
I'm not trying to make light of this issue; suicide must be taken seriously.
But I do think that Francis Carmody is over-reacting just a bit.
Disclaimer: I have never worked as a suicide prevention person, and have no
training in the field (other than a few scattered readings I've done on my
own). This are just my *impressions*. I welcome (beg for, actually) facts.
(It would be nice if they were polite....)
-Dragon
--
UUCP: seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!!cmu-cs-cad!mjc or if that doesn't work:
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ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crgmiles@vax135.UUCP (Miles Murdocca) (03/13/86)
>This discussion of painless suicide methods has gotten unnerving to me. >I know there was a *big* discussion recently on "should it be legal?" >3) Net policy forbids both requests and responses as to information >on *how to perform illegal acts*. (I am not trying to net.admin >here. See below. For now, please take it that I am *stating a fact* >and leave it at that....) Don't get bent out of shape about the discussion. It's all been academic so far. I can't think of a method of suicide that is totally painless, including death while unconcsious because there will probably be stress involved until one goes under (no pun intended). I would guess that the schizophrenics have it easy. Half the mind could decide on suicide without the other half knowing anything about it. My suggestion to the original poster is to go crazy first and then you'll have nothing to worry about. Roses are red, Viloets are blue; I'm schizophrenic, And I am too. Miles Murdocca, 4G-538, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Crawfords Corner Rd, Holmdel, NJ, 07733, (201) 949-2504, ...{ihnp4}!vax135!miles
rlz@astroatc.UUCP (Robert Ziegler) (03/14/86)
In article <1326@vax135.UUCP> miles@vax135.UUCP (Miles Murdocca) writes: [...] >Don't get bent out of shape about the discussion. It's all been academic >so far. > >I can't think of a method of suicide that is totally painless, including >death while unconcsious because there will probably be stress involved >until one goes under (no pun intended). I would guess that the >schizophrenics have it easy. Half the mind could decide on suicide >without the other half knowing anything about it. My suggestion to >the original poster is to go crazy first and then you'll have nothing >to worry about. > > Roses are red, > Viloets are blue; > I'm schizophrenic, > And I am too. > > Miles Murdocca, 4G-538, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Crawfords Corner Rd, > Holmdel, NJ, 07733, (201) 949-2504, ...{ihnp4}!vax135!miles As long as current discussions have been in flame mode, 1. You are describing a rare neurotic condition known as split personality, not the relatively common, psychotic condition known as schizophrenia, which is a cognitive disorder. Approximately 1 in every 100 people in the U.S. are afflicted with schizophrenia. 2. If you were schizophrenic, you probably wouldn't be making fun of it. The prognosis for people with the affliction is poor, and if the condition occurs before the age of 30, the prognosis is almost hopeless. Having worked in a pilot project aimed at keeping young schizophrenics out of the institutions and functioning independently in mainstream society, I can say that my impression of people with the disease is one of courage that isn't seen in "normal" people, and oftentimes one of exemplary humanity, as well. If there is a hell on earth, these people are in it, through no fault of their own. Their suicide rates are also very high, although I can't remember any figures on it. 3. If you feel so secure in and superior due to your own mental health, may I suggest that you do some volunteer work with these people. Mental health is a precious state to be protected and nourished, becuase it is so easily lost. The difference between "them" and "us" is a matter of degree, and that's about it. One can learn a lot about being human from these people. If you're lucky, you may even grow through their pain, rather than having to experience it yourself. Grrrrrr, Robert L. Ziegler
elf@cylixd.UUCP (Leonard Bottleman) (03/17/86)
In article <1216@udenva.UUCP> fcarmody@udenva.UUCP (Prince Caspian) writes: >4) The fact that the poster who started all this (sorry if I can't >remember your name at the moment) requested info on an illegal act >(painless suicide) without a smiley etc. represents some form >of *intent*. Intent to suicide should not be bypassed. >The "illegality" as far as the net policy violation represented by >his request should of course be ignored. As most of the people >in this group are no doubt aware, *this was a cry for help*.... First of all, I believe that it is a person's right to kill himself, and that suicide is a valid option to take to end a life of suffering. Second, the original poster said something like "out of morbid curiosity", which indicates that he was not interested in killing himself. Some people do prefer to use the English language to express what they mean rather than relying on keyboard graphics. >5) It is my considered opinion that some poster(s) have been >positively *cruel* in actually offering this person suggestions >as to painless methods. That seems tantamount to saying, >"If you really want to, go ahead....here's how!" >Whoever you are, you have not only spit in the face of net policy, >but also *at least* severely shocked a potential suicide. >*THINK: Someone may now be *dead* because of your "advice". >I don't really care whether you thought you were making a joke or >not....*you can't afford to assume they weren't serious in >the intent to end their life!* If I wanted to kill myself and asked for information on how to do so in a painless way, I would consider it cruel for someone to lecture me on how wrong he thought suicide to be. >I believe there is an apology due somewhere.... It seems that the only person offended is you, and if you find the discussion of suicide distasteful, you can always hit the 'n' key, or unsubscribe from the newsgroup. Leonard Bottleman ihnp4!akgua!cylixd!elf "Like, for this cat, the only reality is death."
dcgoricanec@watnot.UUCP (dcgoricanec) (03/18/86)
I would imagine people with split personalities would have a suicide rate oh,maybe 2,3,4 or even 5 times average ... 8-)(
garry@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Garry Wiegand) (03/21/86)
Why on earth is suicide still illegal??? Morally, it seems similar to the abortion controversy in that there is a right to privacy and control of oneself that is opposed to a societal view that "this is a bad thing." Is it the religious view that "suicide is murder [of yourself]" just as it is said "abortion is murder [of the fetus]"?? What is the theological rationale? (Are there Western/ Christian religions that hold it *not* to be a sin?) Legally, it seems silly. Do (presumably unsuccessful) suiciders *ever* get prosecuted in the United States? If not, why is there a law on the subject? Is there any state in which the law reckons an attempted suicide as an automatic proof of insanity (as opposed to reckoning it a crime?) Is there any state in which suicide is legal? What is the moral and legal status of someone who *abets* a suicide? Is suicide itself a legal crime just so assistants (doctors, relatives, etc) can be prosecuted under the statutes relating to "aiding the commission of a felony"? Are there states in which the act itself is legal but aiding in it is not? Vice versa? And is there any theological distinction between suiciding and aiding a suicide? Lastly, does anyone have personal experience with the long arm of the law? I'm interested because to me the illegality of suicide seems like a civil-rights question -- one that's never been addressed by liberal politics. I'm posting this to net.suicide, net.legal, and net.religion, and I'm directing followups to net.suicide. garry wiegand garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) (03/23/86)
> Why on earth is suicide still illegal??? > > Legally, it seems silly. Do (presumably unsuccessful) suiciders *ever* > get prosecuted in the United States? If not, why is there a law on the > subject? Is there any state in which the law reckons an attempted > suicide as an automatic proof of insanity (as opposed to reckoning it > a crime?) Is there any state in which suicide is legal? > Jack Moore, a New Jersey attorney tells us: Suicide is still illegal because its accomplishment increases the probablility that others will commit the act. Assuming that the number of suicides increases, the level of organization, productivity, etc., in society generally decreases, affecting individuals adversely. Legally it's NOT silly because the laws on suicide deter people from exhorting others to commit the act for fear of prosecution for complicity. And people ARE prosecuted for this kind of accomplice liability, even if only at the complaint stage of criminal procedings. For example: If X tells Y "Go ahead, take this poison and end your misery," and if Y fails, and the complaint is brought against X, X is less likely to encourage Y to repeat the attempt. And to some degree, it lowers the probability that Y will do so. (How refreshing to get an answer from a REAL lawyer, don't you think?) -Steve Miller ihnp4!bambi!steve
desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) (03/23/86)
In article <430@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cornell.edu.arpa writes: >Why on earth is suicide still illegal??? > >Legally, it seems silly. Do (presumably unsuccessful) suiciders *ever* >get prosecuted in the United States? If not, why is there a law on the >subject? Is there any state in which the law reckons an attempted >suicide as an automatic proof of insanity (as opposed to reckoning it >a crime?) Is there any state in which suicide is legal? The reason for making suicide a crime is to give the government (i.e. the police) the authority to try to prevent it. I don't know whether I agree with this or not, but this is clearly the rationale. I don't think people are often prosecuted, but note that charging an individual with such a crime gives the police the authority to detain him (to seek appropriate care and to prevent a repeated attempt). -- David desJardins
spp@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Stephen P Pope) (03/24/86)
> Why on earth is suicide still illegal???
So that accomplices and conspirators can be prosecuted.
This would apply mostly to mass religious-type suicides,
and mercy-killing scenarios.
Incidently, the USENET rules specifically prohibit discussing
how to perform illegal acts. So I say, get the discussion
of suicide techniques off the net.
steveark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (03/25/86)
> Why on earth is suicide still illegal???
Because it's attempted destruction of government property.ferris@tcville.UUCP (Mark Ferris) (03/28/86)
C'mon people, this subject can't really be construed as a topic for
humor. I would imagine that the majority of readers of net.suicide
have at one point gone through a depressing enough period of their
life that the word "suicide" at least went through their head.
For those who have made it through that time and looking back
realized how silly the notion of suicide actually is and how easy
it may have been to go through with it, suicide is not funny.
I know that joking about things often makes it easier to deal
with. I disagree that that is something we want to do.
Completely aside from any issues of legality, I believe strongly
that suicide is morally wrong (look at 1 Kings and how God dealt
with Elijiah went he said it would be better for him to die), and
am convinced that no problem is _objectively_ that great that
suicide is the only way out (granted it may be the easy way
out). (many, many supporting points and reasons are left out
of that statment, but I'll leave it as is)
Primarily because suicide seems to be on the rise, particularly
among teenagers, I think the issue is one to be examined gravely
in light of why people do commit suicide, and why they though there
was no other solution. Why do I read net.suicide? Certainly not
to read jokes about it. I have a certain personal interest in
depression and suicide, and I'm interested in how people have
coped with and survived (not suicide explicitly, but the temptation
to).
I'm not sure, but I think I'm done for now.
mdf
--
Mark Ferris Proverbs 2:7
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