jpm@calmasd.UUCP (John McNally) (03/12/85)
Thanks to all the netters who so kindly responded to my inquiry
about Eunice. These include:
Darrel J. Van Buer {sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!darrelj (SDC)
Chuck Hedrick {sdcsvax}!trwrb!twg!topaz!hedrick
Dan ? {sdcsvax}!allegra!fisher!djl
Jim ? {sdcsvax}!decvax!hcr!jim
Gunnar Lindberg {sdcsvax!decvax}!mcvax!enea!chalmers!lindberg
(Chalmers University of Technology)
Brian Gordon {sdcsvax!decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon (AMDCAD)
Chip Rosenthal {...!intelca}!t4test!chip (INTEL)
If I have forgotten anyone, sorry and thanks to you as well! I
have taken the responses I got and summarized them for the net.
Most responses were directly related to Eunice, but I got
information (as I requested) on other products that occupy a
similar niche in the VAX/VMS/UNIX-like world. I will treat each
in a separate section, starting with Eunice.
1. Eunice
This product emulates 4.1BSD UNIX system calls. It is
compatible with programs written for UNIX at the source level.
This means you re-link your UNIX programs with Eunice libraries
and the program will work. I assume this means you also must
re-compile the program, but the responses I got did not indicate
this for sure. Basically, Eunice allows you to run just about any
Unix program under VMS. If you must re-compile the program (see
above), then I assume you must have some form of language support
for your programming language that operates on VMS (or maybe has
been ported from UNIX to Eunice?).
The consensus was that Eunice runs slowly (but that is to be
expected - OS within OS philosophy), that some of the Unix
utilities running on top of Eunice have some rough edges, and if
you can swing native Unix it would be a better idea. However, if
you need VMS because of product support requirements, Eunice can
give you a quick method of integrating a nice programming
environment into your development work. You must have a UNIX
license. It runs on VMS 3.4 and up, but watch out for catch up
time on new VMS releases.
Eunice is provided by the Wollongong Group, 1135A San Antonio Rd.
Palo Alto, CA 94303 415-962-9224. They get no pre-releases of VMS
or UNIX, so you might want to consider lead time problems with OS
upgrades. Supposedly, System V support will soon appear. The
cost for Eunice appears to be in the $16k range. I made no
contact with TWG, nor any other vendor, during this survey.
Other products mentioned to me include:
2. IS/WB
This product is marketed by Interactive Systems Corp. and
provides 200 UNIX tools as extensions to VMS. The company claims
that this does not alter VMS performance. Of course, this
approach only provides a UNIX-like tool enviroment on top of VMS, and
so it does not provide for moving user programs from UNIX to VMS
(unless I misunderstood the product).
The address is:
Interactive Systems Corp. 1212 Seventh Street Santa Monica, CA
213-450-8363.
3. VAX UNITY
This seems to be very similar in philosophy to the Eunice
approach - emulated at the system call level through a virtual
kernel, relink using provided libraries, no code changes. All I
have for this is a phone number:
416-922-1937 (New York)
4. Pheonix
Hardly any info available to me, except that it provides
compatability at the binary level - no source change or
re-compilation required.
5. Ultrix
This was mentioned as an alternative because of the
performance problems of "OS within an OS" approach. If you can
share a machine between two OS (at different times, of course) or
you have a separate development machine, using a UNIX-lookalike
that is native could be the way to go. Of course, if you can
afford this, you could probably just run 4.2. However, if you are
heavily dependent upon VMS, you might prefer Ultrix because it is
a DEC-supported product. I hear the DEC CEs don't like doing
diagnostics on VAX with foreign OS.
<The rest of this article is just my random thoughts>
Doing this survey was really interesting for me (I was actually
obtaining some info for a friend). I was forced to think about
what Unix really is when we start seeing various versions,
look-alikes, OS on top of OS, etc. It seems that what Unix is to
you depends a lot on what you use Unix for. To some people it is
a true operating system - a solution to shared resource
management. To others it is a set of functions for accomplishing
program functions like file i/o, terminal communication, etc. To
still others it is a programming environment consisting of very
useful utilities and programs like make, RCS and a command shell
that provides pipes and i/o redirection.
I think that this third point is where Unix is now really
making inroads in the industry and explains the success of Eunice
and other products. A few years ago people were saying that Unix
would be the standard OS. A recent article in Mini/Micro (2/85)
refutes this and echoes my sentiments about the programming
environment. This explains the popularity of re-implementing Unix
(Ultrix, Zenix, ad nauseaum) and even more importantly, the
popularity of Unix system calls as an application on top of a
proprietary OS - Eunice provides this for VMS and several vendors
(Ridge, Elexsis and Data General, at least) are taking
this approach now.
Disclaimers:
There are probably a lot of trademarks in this article that belong
to some corporations, like Unix, Ultrix, Zenix, Vax, etc.
I have no association with any of the companies mentioned in this
article other than having read about or, in some cases, used their
product(s).
The information I have provided here is, to the best of my
knowledge, correct. If I have misinformed anyone, I would be glad
to correct my statements if someone just tells me where I am wrong.
These statements do not neccessarily represent the views of my
employer.
--
John McNally Calma 11080 Roselle St. San Diego CA 92121
...{ucbvax,decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm (619)-458-3230bobd@zaphod.UUCP (Bob Dalgleish) (03/14/85)
> ... list of UNIX-alikes ... > 5. Ultrix > This was mentioned as an alternative because of the > performance problems of "OS within an OS" approach. If you can > share a machine between two OS (at different times, of course) or > you have a separate development machine, using a UNIX-lookalike > that is native could be the way to go. Of course, if you can > afford this, you could probably just run 4.2. However, if you are > heavily dependent upon VMS, you might prefer Ultrix because it is > a DEC-supported product. I hear the DEC CEs don't like doing > diagnostics on VAX with foreign OS. We have been running Ultrix since before Christmas and I have some reactions: far fewer problems than any other installation of UNIX that I have done or helped with - some games don't work, vi has all of the standard vi bugs, and dbx is badly crippled. Also, we did not have to buy a UNIX source licence. I have talked with some people running "vanilla" 4.2 and it sounds like we have an exceptional system: virtually bug free (although wait until the load gets unreasonable). Initial installation took 8 hours from our DEC person, mostly because he had never been trained on Ultrix ('tis a problem). We have had 2 "pure" software crashes in this time, both of which we are discussing with the DEC CSC (which has been very helpful so far). The major problem we will experience is that we don't get some things as soon as we would like (SCCS, RCS, ...) because DEC likes to fix them before releasing them. Also, Ultrix V1.1 (Real Soon Now) will have the feature (kludge?) to be able to run VMS diagnostics online. This will give our CE's a homey feeling. > ... This explains the popularity of re-implementing Unix > (Ultrix, Zenix, ad nauseaum) ... I understood that you could not call a system UNIX(TM) unless it was either from AT&T *or* was validated by them (i.e., the validated System V products from Motorola, etc.). Thus, the system had to be renamed whether it was a straight port, or added significant changes (such as Microsoft did with XENIX). > ... and even more importantly, the > popularity of Unix system calls as an application on top of a > proprietary OS - Eunice provides this for VMS and several vendors > (Ridge, Elexsis and Data General, at least) are taking > this approach now. Also, DEC now offers a product under VMS called DECshell, which has about 50 or 60 of the nice UNIX tools, plus efficient (under VMS, anyway) implementations of pipes and processes. > John McNally Calma 11080 Roselle St. San Diego CA 92121 > ...{ucbvax,decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm (619)-458-3230 -- [The opinions expressed here are only loosely based on the facts] Bob Dalgleish ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd ihnp4! (My company has disclaimed any knowledge of me and whatever I might say)
gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) (03/14/85)
In article <309@calmasd.UUCP> jpm@calmasd.UUCP (John McNally) writes: > >Thanks to all the netters who so kindly responded to my inquiry >about Eunice. These include: > > ... >Brian Gordon {sdcsvax!decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon (AMDCAD) ^^^^^^ Gee, and I thought I worked for CAE Systems, Inc. ... FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems UUCP: {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon {nsc, resonex, qubix, hplabs, leadsv, teklds}!cae780!gordon USNAIL: 1333 Bordeaux Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 AT&T: (408)745-1440
jimc@haddock.UUCP (03/16/85)
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation has moved. The new address and phone number is: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation 2401 Colorado Avenue Santa Monica, CA 90404 Phone: 213/453-8649 Jim Campbell INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation Boston Technical Office
jpm@calmasd.UUCP (John McNally) (03/19/85)
>In article <309@calmasd.UUCP> jpm@calmasd.UUCP (John McNally) writes: >> >>Thanks to all the netters who so kindly responded to my inquiry >>about Eunice. These include: >> >> ... >>Brian Gordon {sdcsvax!decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon (AMDCAD) ^^^^^^ >Gee, and I thought I worked for CAE Systems, Inc. ... >FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems >UUCP: {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon > {nsc, resonex, qubix, hplabs, leadsv, teklds}!cae780!gordon >USNAIL: 1333 Bordeaux Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 >AT&T: (408)745-1440 Sorry about getting your organization affiliation wrong in my recent posting to net.eunice. I put this in based on the organization field value in the header of the article that you posted to net.eunice. It says: AMDCAD, Sunnyvale, CA. If I had read your signature more carefully, I would have found the correct organization. Interestingly enough, the org field in the posting I reference above (with >) now reads CAE systems. Also, I tried to mail this response to you using the ucbvax to amd to cae780 path you give in your signature, but I got an unknown host message from the ucbvax mailer daemon (ouch)! For your info, the headers of your original article to net.eunice and the mailer daemon message are appended. Sorry if this crap bugs any other netters - seems important to get this worked out. (original posting by Brian to net.eunice in response to my query) From sdcc6!sdcc3!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!pertec!pesnta!amdcad!cae780!gordon Sat Feb 2 15:20:54 1985 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site calmasd.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site cae780.UUCP Path: calmasd!sdcc6!sdcc3!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!pertec!pesnta!amdcad!cae780!gordon From: gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) Newsgroups: net.eunice Subject: Re: NAIVE EUNICE INFO REQUEST Message-ID: <411@cae780.UUCP> Date: Sat, 2-Feb-85 15:20:54 PST Article-I.D.: cae780.411 Posted: Sat Feb 2 15:20:54 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 8-Feb-85 18:56:11 PST References: <281@calmasd.UUCP> Reply-To: gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) Organization: AMDCAD, Sunnyvale, CA Lines: 49 Summary: <i did not post complete message here for sanity of the net - jpm> (mailer daemon in response to attempt to mail to Brian Gordon) From sdcsvax!ucbvax!MAILER-DAEMON Tue Mar 19 02:42:39 1985 Received: by calmasd.CALMA.UUCP (1.0calma-sd) Tue, 19 Mar 85 02:42:35 pst Received: by sdcsvax.ARPA (4.24/4.41) id AA12589; Tue, 19 Mar 85 02:09:44 pst Received: by UCB-VAX.ARPA (4.24/4.42) id AA19690; Mon, 18 Mar 85 21:30:29 pst Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 09:44:45 pst From: sdcsvax!ucbvax!MAILER-DAEMON (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown Message-Id: <8503190530.AA19690@UCB-VAX.ARPA> To: sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm Status: RO ----- Transcript of session follows ----- bad system name: amd uux failed. code 68 550 amd!cae780!gordon... Host unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by UCB-VAX.ARPA (4.24/4.42) id AA19683; Mon, 18 Mar 85 21:30:29 pst Received: by sdcsvax.ARPA (4.24/4.41) id AA23437; Mon, 18 Mar 85 09:45:13 pst From: sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm (John McNally) Received: by calmasd.CALMA.UUCP (1.0calma-sd) Mon, 18 Mar 85 09:44:45 pst Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 09:44:45 pst Message-Id: <8503181744.AA15656@calmasd.CALMA.UUCP> To: sdcsvax!ucbvax!amd!cae780!gordon Subject: BAD ORGANIZATION FIELD??? <i did not append complete message - jpm> -- John McNally Calma 11080 Roselle St. San Diego CA 92121 ...{ucbvax,decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm (619)-458-3230