mclure%sri-prism@sri-unix.UUCP (08/22/84)
The Vote Tally -------------- Folks, the moves are in and have been tallied. The winner is: 8 ... cxd4. A total of 20 moves were cast. Please relay this message to any friends you have who might be interested in participating. This includes non-net people. The Machine Moves ----------------- Depth Move Time for search Nodes Machine's Estimate 8 ply cxd4 18 hours, 7 minutes 6.5x10^7 += Humans Move # Votes BR ** -- BQ BK BB -- BR 8 ... cxd4 8 8 ... Qe7 1 ** BP ** BB ** BP BP BP 8 ... Qc7 3 BP ** BN BP -- BN -- ** 8 ... Be7 3 ** -- ** -- BP -- ** -- 8 ... Qb6 1 -- ** -- WP WP ** -- ** 8 ... e6 1 ** -- ** -- ** WN ** -- 8 ... b5 1 WP WP -- ** -- WP WP WP 8 ... d5 1 WR WN WB WQ WR WB WK -- 8 ... Bg4 1 Prestige 8-ply Note that the machine now thinks it is ahead positionally. The Game So Far --------------- 1. e4 c5 6. Re1 a6 2. Nf3 d6 7. Bf1 e5 3. Bb5+ Nc6 8. d4 cxd4 4. o-o Bd7 9. cxd4 5. c3 Nf6 Commentary ---------- Goodell@xerox, USCF ? I think 8 ... Be7 would be a good move now to prepare for castling to the strong side. My second choice would be g6 followed by Bg7, but I think it would take too long. BLee.ES@xerox, USCF ? 8 ... Qb6 a) develops the queen, b) attacks d4 again, c) discourages movement of white's queen bishop, d) prepares castling long. Tli@Usc-Eclb, USCF ? Unfortunately, the voting will also keep out the inspired moves. So we get an average game of all playing.... SLOAN@WASHINGTON 8. ... b5 It is worth noting a classical problem here in building a chess program: 1) The machine was following its book until this move, 2) As White, the machine should enjoy AT LEAST EQUALITY in the first position following "book" recommendations, 3) However, having switched from "book" evaluation to its own opening/middle game evaluation, the machine now decides that it doesn't much like this position after all! There are several possibilities: 0) Black is superior in the starting position (unlikely!) 1) the book (at least this line) is inferior, and the machine should discard it (anyone out there think that the Prestige will do this?) 2) the book is (objectively) correct, but this line does not match the playing "style" of the machine (i.e., the position is OK, but the machine doesn't know the correct thematic continuations, and hence will indeed find the position to be difficult.) This last possibility is most likely, and is not limited to machine play. Many human players have the same problem when they memorize columns and columns of analysis without understanding the REASONS for the evaluations at the ends of the columns. This leads to post-mortem conversations of the form "That master isn't so strong; I had him CRUSHED in the opening...but he SOMEHOW escaped to a dead drawn ending - he didn't even know that it was theoretically drawn - he refused my draw offer! - I was so mad at him for that that I lost my concentration for 1 move and hung a piece." CMP.WERNER@UTEXAS-20, USCF ? Qc7 risky, but requiring a non-trivial evaluation by white. JPERRY@SRI-KL, USCF 1893 I vote that Black's eighth move should be 8... cd The reason I voted for this move is that Black can occupy the thematic QB file sooner than white by taking with the QBP. The move 8...ed seems to be a blunder because white can try to prepare favorable complications on the K file with e5. 8... Be7 seems plausible but allows 9. d5 and then Black has no counter play on an open file. All in all, 8...cd seems like Black's most logical retort to the bold 8. d4. tpeters@BBNCCP, USCF ? I vote for 8. ...Be7. I disagree with the computer's assessment. Black may have equalized or white may have a slight advantage, but there is no reason to think that black is better. The following is taken from Sizilianisch II by Rolf Schwarz. It should be viewed as a guideline and source of ideas, not as infallible gospel. 8.d4: A. 8. ...Be7 9.d x c5! d x c5 10. Na3 slight advantage to white [but why not 10. ...b5 equal? TP] B. 8. ...c x d4 9. c x d4 Bg4 10. d5 Nd4 11. Be3! N x f3+ 12. g x f3 Bh5 with slight advantage to white I picked 8. ...Be7 because white's advantage in B. seems small but quite clear. He (it?) has pressure down the c file and the white light-square bishop can become very active on h3. Moreover, his doubled pawns are nowhere near as weak as they may seem to some. At any rate it just doesn't seem reasonable to open the center by 8. ...c x d4 while the kingside is underdeveloped. Schaer.dlos@XEROX, USCF ? I vote for 8 ... cd Cannot stand d5. Don't know what I intend to do after 9. cd, but probably 9 ... Be7 and worry about 10. d5 later. EWG@Cmu-Cs-Ps1, USCF ? The comment that the group of humans won't have a long term strategy is, I think, naieve. It is just as easy for us to analyze lines of play (e.g. kingside vs queenside attack, try to trade off and queen a pawn, etc.) as it is for us to analyze the single position. If anything it's somewhat easier, since we think about that anyway. Why not solicit votes on that level as well and at least report the judgement (if not allowing it to directly choose the move at hand, which would be rash). A suggestion for later in the game, at least. This harkens back to memories of 10 or so years ago when I was still reading the chess books, and ran across a comment by one of the grandmasters (Sam Reshevski, I think?) who liked to play blitz and always used the style of spending a significant time thinking about lines of play at the start of the middle game. His strategy was to have the lines firmly in mind for later play. The comment was that his opponents often got bored waiting for him to reply at that time and wasted the real time; he could then play at blitz pace much better as the game progressed and the opponent struggled for the right line(s) of play. It also had the surface appearance of him putting himself deliberately in time trouble, which wasn't the case. rod@Maryland, USCF 2115 My rating is USCF 2115. I didn't want to enter until you were in the middle game but 7....,e5??? is a mistake. Now, either you allow 9. d5 in which case your queen-knight will be difficult to develop, or you open the game which is very dangerous becouse your king is in the middle and it will take some time to 0-0. If the machine plays right you will end up with an isolated pawn or with d5 which will constraint you. Now here are some of my thoughts: if 8....,cxd5 9cxd4 Nc6 10 Nc3! (no yet d5 so your bishop-king will not go out) and now you are almost forced to get an isolated pawn and the machine is in much better posiiton. In this position oyu may try 10....Qb6 but after 11 dxe dxe 12 Be3! you can't play 12....Qxb2 because of 13 Nb5!+- Let's get back to our initial position. You may try 8...., Nc6 9 Bg5 Rc8 (no 9....,Be7 10d5 Nb8 and the rook can't go out) 10 Na3 Nc6 11 dxe dxe 12 Nc4 Qc7 13 Bxf6 gxf (no 13...,Bxf6 14Nd6+) 14 Ne3 and you are in a very difficult position in spite of the pair of bishops. As you can see is very easy to get out of the book but is much difficult to play well. It much better to think that you are playing the game of your life and that you have to play the best you possible can. Find the best move in every position, no matter who you are playing with. Let's go back again. An interesting move although a little dangerous is the following: 8...., Bc6!? if 9 d5 then 9....,Bd7 you have lost one move but you have close the position so it doesnt matter that much. You will then develop your Q-Knight via a6-c7 and then try b5, a5 and c4. Here comes the interesting part 9 dxe Nxe4 10 exd Qxd6 and no 10...,Bxd6 11 Qc2!! (no 11Kfd2 0-0! 12Kxe4 Bxe4 13Rxe4 Bxh2+! FORGET the last line. 10...., Bxd6 is good! 11 Ng5 0-0!! 12 Bf4+ Kh8 13 Kf7+ Rxf7 14 Bxf7 Bxh2+!+- You will end up much more developed than the machine. So I think she'll play safely 9 d5. Solicitation ------------ Your move, please? Replies to Arpanet: mclure@sri-unix or Usenet: sri-unix!mclure. DO NOT SEND REPLIES TO THE ENTIRE LIST! Just send them to one of the above addresses.