rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (05/04/84)
> Any normal functioning person can learn to discriminate > tones, and improve. Musically trained persons are usually > better than lay persons. > Even "absolute pitch" perception, which is the ability > to identify the pitch of a given tone without hearing > a reference tone of known pitch, has been shown to > be due to early childhood training. > Thus, if you think you are tone deaf, and want to change > the best thing to do is to listen to a lot of music > and PAY ATTENTION while you are doing it. > > Herman Silbiger CGE I have some questions about absolute pitch. I agree with Mr. Silbiger that it can be an acquired ability. The way I acquired it was to memorize the sound of C, and then work from there? Do others who have absolute pitch find that they go "out of tune". I find that my C can be (up to) a semitone out of tune, though it is usually only a few cents off. Are there factors that cause you to slip "out of tune"? P.S. WHY THE SNIT WAS THIS ARTICLE NOT POSTED TO NET.MUSIC?!?!?!?!? ONLY CLASSICAL MUSICIANS CARE ABOUT SUCH THINGS????? -- "I'm not dead yet!" "Oh, don't be such a baby!" Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
mcmillan@eosp1.UUCP (John McMillan) (05/04/84)
I'm going to apologize in advance for the tone of this note; it unfortunately sounds patronizing. Tonedeafness is a matter of great concern to me, and I have been delighted to see some people improve, and others learn to simply relax and enjoy singing in groups. I am frequently in situations where social correctness requires that everyone sing, and it always makes me angry to consider the social traumas that have been inflicted upon those whose singing is less than perfect, so that they cannot enjoy themselves. I would like to disagree somewhat with H. Silbiger regarding: (1) symptoms (2) cure SYMPTOMS: People who call themselves "tone deaf" are often unable to tell whether they are reproducing simple melodies, or whether anyone else is. When they can reproduce a melody, they may spontaneously change key and sing in bizarre parallel harmonies with others. They may be unable to recognize or reproduce two-note intervals. The tone recognition required to handle speech is quite different from that required for singing. CURE: It much more effective to PLAY music rather than to listen to it. I recommend playing the recorder, one of the easiest instruments to learn (but choose a good recorder, perhaps with the help of your teacher). I think the recorder is more effective than the piano because there is more physical and psychological carryover from a mouth instrument to voice. Many of the tonedeaf people of my acquaintance studied piano in their youth. Tonedeaf singers should not be ostracized (a routine occurrence in gradeschool). They inevitably have insufficient experience controlling the vocal apparatus that selects accurate pitches, and they need to feel comfortable and accepted in group singing situations, where they can get lots of practice. ENVOI: A note to those of you who feel you are tonedeaf: You have many more fellow sufferers you may believe. Most of them are trying never to have to sing; when they do sing, you may not notice their affliction. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
hrs@houxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (05/04/84)
Mr Rosen, the article on tone deafness was posted to net.audio since there was a question in Mr DeBenedictis' article requesting information on equalizers about his alleged tone deafness. I also posted it to net.music.classical. Your pitch identification ability is a form of relative pitch identification, where you use memory as your referent. If your memory referent did not shift, one could not tell the difference between your skill and that of someone with absolute pitch. The exact mechanism of absolute pitch is not known. It apparently has to develop in early childhood, but has been shown to be training dependent. People with absolute pitch can tell whether a turntable is running only a semitone fast! Herman Silbiger CGE (Certified Golden Ears, but only relative pitch)
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (05/05/84)
First, some nonsense, then on to more serious stuff... > Mr Rosen, the article on tone deafness was posted to net.audio > since there was a question in Mr DeBenedictis' article requesting > information on equalizers about his alleged tone deafness. My statement did not ask about why it *was* posted to net.audio... > I also posted it to net.music.classical. ...but instead asked why, when the article was posted to other newsgroups, net.music.classical was selected while net.music was not! Those who have unsubscribed to net.music have already missed an article or two (by others) that was not submitted to net.music.classical . On to substantive matters... > Your pitch identification ability is a form of relative pitch identification, > where you use memory as your referent. If your memory referent > did not shift, one could not tell the difference between your > skill and that of someone with absolute pitch. > The exact mechanism of absolute pitch is not known. It apparently > has to develop in early childhood, but has been shown to > be training dependent. People with absolute pitch can tell > whether a turntable is running only a semitone fast! The ability to tell if a turntable is running fast is one that I do have. I didn't get any special training in early childhood (didn't start piano lessons until age 8, and no special pitch recognition training was included). My ability in this area seems to stem only from what you refer to as memory referent relative pitch. If I succeeded in memorizing all the notes of the scale (not just C), would that be absolute (or perfect) pitch? I am at the point where I recognize some other notes instantly without doing a "context switch" to imagine an interval to C. I wonder if perfect pitch starts with the memorization of a reference note and expands to the point where all notes are instantly recognized. It's certainly true that instant recognition of entire chord harmonies is much more difficult than for single notes, and is acquired through both ear training and music theory learning. (Isn't it?) (I'm not trying to be contrary, just stating that my experience is quite different from that which you describe.) I really don't think that "absolute perfect pitch" is something unique to a small group of individuals; I think it's much more universal than we realize. Many people may not have the training to recognize individual notes and chords (or sequences of them) for what they are, but I tend to think they can be distinguished by most everyone. A professor of mine once pointed out that if all of that virtuoso piano music (Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff) written in C# minor or Db major were played in C min/maj, it just wouldn't sound the same. The "warmth" with which the keys are regarded may be subjective or conditioned, but the ability to distinguish them from C min/maj seems to be universal. Though the "untrained" ear may not have the knowledge to determine what is different, a difference *will* be detected. (Did those guys write in those guys just to show how good they were, playing in such a difficult key? Typical!) (Does anyone have microtonal perfect pitch? What about those people who can identify a classical recording just by *looking* at the record? Read "A Conversation with Einstein's Brain" by Doug Hofstadter in his book "The Mind's 'I'" for an interesting corollary.) -- Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME... Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
ed@mtxinu.UUCP (05/08/84)
I suspect that the difference between c#/Db and c/C is not one of pitch, but of temperment. Remember that the modern piano is not tuned to a mathematically-perfect scale, but that it is tempered to provide 12 equal-sounding intervals in the octave. This means that the relationship between the tonic and other degrees of the scale varies with key. The subject of absolute pitch has been much debated for many years, but so far as I know, there is no real evidence about just what it is or how it is developed. I do know people who have managed to develop the very long term memory for a particular pitch. This allows them to simulate absolute pitch but doesn't quite match it. I once asked a friend with absolute pitch (who, by the way, had a bad ear and frequently played out of tune!) what some note sounded like. He answered "strawberries". -- Ed Gould ucbvax!mtxinu!ed