fritz@hpfclk.UUCP (fritz) (08/27/84)
Well, I finally purchased a new cassette deck (Nak BX-150!), and am now
in the throes of looking for a new turntable.
But I have a dilemma. I would *really* like to have a first-rate, high-
quality, excellent sounding turntable. I'm not going to go so far as a
Linn or something equally outrageous (I'd like to keep it under $500 or so),
but, as an example, the Rega Planar 2 seems to be a very cleanly-designed,
well-constructed, and good-sounding table. (With Rega R-100 cartridge,
it comes to about $450.)
However, I have to face reality. I have "only" Sn-ears. I was able to
hear the difference between the Rega and a Denon B-300 II (?), but only
*very* slightly and only by A-B'ing the two tables with good recordings.
(The cartridges, amps, speakers, cables, etc. were identical for both
tables. They just unplugged one table from the Naim preamp and plugged in
the other.) The difference was enough to justify the ~$75 difference, but...
In addition, I seldom sit down in front of my speakers and concentrate
on the crystal clarity and realism of the sound. More typically I am
reading or something while the music is playing, and a 0.01% difference
in sound is not going to kill me.
The other facet of reality is: I am lazy. My very first turntable was
fully manual (Kenwood KD-500, Black Widow, Shure V-15 Type IV -- not
great, but not bad for a first table!). After owning it for several years,
I came to the conclusion that I did not particularly enjoy cueing the
stylus manually and jumping up at the end of the album to pick it up again.
I am aware of the various pick-up devices that are available to lift the
arm at the end of the album. This helps a lot, but I'd still prefer not
to have to cue the arm at the start of the album, either. My table for
the last few years has been a B&O 2400; much more convenient, but not a
very terrific table.
I don't believe in the linear-tracking gospel. Basically the idea is good;
after all, that's how the cutter cut the groove, right? But having the
cartridge/groove angle changing grossly and continuously across the album
(as the motors move the arm ahead of the groove, and the groove catches up
& passes the arm, etc.), and the vibrations associated with the motors,
would not seem to augur good sound. Seems to me like a very gradual change
in angle across the entire album, with no little motors cranking the arm
around, would do a much better job.
So it comes down to this: are there any *good* automatic tables out there?
So far, the automatic tables I've seen seem to fit into two categories:
1. Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, etc. (basically junk)
2. Technics & other linear-trackers (high-tech junk)
Does anyone know of any automatic tables that fit into a third category,
that of high-quality sounding automatics for under $5-600? Is there a
table that will satisfy my sterling ears AND my love of convenience, or
should I just go with a manual?
Thanks,
Gary Fritz
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritzjcp@brl-tgr.UUCP (09/01/84)
You might try looking at the Thorens line, I believe that one of theirs can be ordered with an automatic queueing mechanism, (if now, their manual queueing is about the easiest to use I've encountered) The sound is really quite good too, (although not in the same class as the Linn, which I haven't heard) -JCP-
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/07/84)
[.]
One reason for the paucity of response to questions about
relatively expensive turntables (0.5 to 1.0 x CD player$$) is
the feeling in some of us that young audiophiles maybe ought not
to saddle themselves with buggies, whips and riding clothes.
Young aspiring audiophiles ought really to consider CD from the
start. Yes, the discs are expensive. But relatively speaking, they
are no more expensive than good LP's were when I bought my first
one while building my first hi-fi system in college. In those
days, $5.95 was as far beyond my minimal wages as todays $17 CDs.
I can see buying a cheapy (~$1xx.00), but not >$200). It will
only encourage you to buy records which are of rotten quality to
begin with (we all seem to agree), and deteriorate from there.
If you have to invest in analog sources beyond FM, try to limit
yourself to cassette. They are plentiful and cheap in the market
place, and you can record your own even cheaper.
Dick Grantges hound!rfgfritz@hpfclk.UUCP (09/09/84)
Nf-From: hpfclk!fritz Sep 17 09:33:00 1984
Dick,
As the writer of the "Turntable questions" note, let me respond to your
comments on my desire to purchase antiquated technology. Maybe I
shouldn't "saddle myself with buggies, whips, and riding clothes" -- but
if I've already got a stable of horses.....
You see, I've already got several hundred albums. I take scrupulous
care of my albums, and nearly all of them are still in mint condition.
I can still get very good, very clean sound out of them, and will for
some time to come. This is partly because I do not play albums all the
time; if I have an album I want to listen to a lot, I will tape it and
listen to the tape when I just want "casual" (i.e. background) music.
If I want to listen to the music "seriously", then I put on the album.
However, my B&O's cartridge is on its last legs, and would cost $150-200
to replace -- and I only paid $225 for the table (used) 3 years ago!
I'm also afraid that the stylus itself is probably pretty worn, and is
not doing my precious albums any good. Besides, I was never
tremendously happy with the B&O, and am ready for a change. Hence my
interest in new tables.
As for my (current) lack of interest in CD's: I am, in fact, very interested
in them. I have been following the discussions in this newsgroup avidly.
It seems clear to me, by the amount of dissention in the ranks, that there
are still some problems with CD's. I think we could consider ourselves to
be in the "second generation" of CD players now, with some improvements
over the first attempts. Since I am not in a frothing hurry to get a CD
player, I prefer to wait until we understand things just a bit better.
It doesn't hurt my feelings that this will also result in more bang for
the buck, since much of the initial hysteria will have died down by then.
Along with improvements in the CD players, I think I detect (from comments
here) gradual improvements in the discs themselves. The recording engineers
are beginning to understand how to mike for them, etc. Waiting a bit longer
should result in better software AND hardware.
I'm glad you enjoy your CD's. One of these days I intend to enjoy them, too.
But in the meantime I have a considerable investment in vinyl that I would
like to protect and enjoy for many years to come. *That's* why I'm asking
about turntables.
Gary Fritz
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritzfritz@hpfclk.UUCP (fritz) (09/09/84)
I made a slight (Freudian?) slip -- I meant *Ag*-ears, not Sn-ears! *blush* Well, in a week, I've only gotten one response: a recommendation for a Denon DP-32F table. Is everyone gone on vacation, or should I interpret this as an indication that there ARE no good automatic tables? Gary Fritz
newton2@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (09/11/84)
>The sound is quite good, although not in the same class as >the Linn, which I haven't heard This is my favorite dry drollery yet in the world of audio metaphysicians. I trust it was intentional?
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (09/15/84)
Dick Grantges has suggested, pretty strongly, that people starting off with new systems go CD from the start: >One reason for the paucity of response to questions about >relatively expensive turntables (0.5 to 1.0 x CD player$$) is >the feeling in some of us that young audiophiles maybe ought not >to saddle themselves with buggies, whips and riding clothes. >Young aspiring audiophiles ought really to consider CD from the >start...I can see buying a cheapy [turntable] >(~$1xx.00), but not >$200). It will >only encourage you to buy records which are of rotten quality to >begin with (we all seem to agree), and deteriorate from there. Now, I'm not going to take a position like Greg Paley has (that LPs sound better); in fact, I've got a CD player and I like it. But this approach of going with CD from the start just won't work. The discs aren't available yet in sufficient quantity and selection. To illustrate, just bounce over to net.music and look through the current discussion on "classic rock albums". Now go see how many of those albums you can buy on CD...and I don't mean "how many have been released and are alleged to exist". I mean how many you can actually find in any store near you. Here's a list of some standard best rock for you to try (don't flame for omissions; it's just a sample): Dark Side of the Moon Arc of a Diver Europe '72 Trilogy American Beauty Are You Experienced Surrealistic Pillow Super Session Crown of Creation Aja Eat a Peach Santana Abbey Road John Barleycorn Must Die The Last Waltz Fragile Tommy Cheap Thrills Deja Vu Doors I'd like to have all of these on CD. I've got one--DSoM--and it was a hassle because they're in such short supply. Tommy and Surrealistic Pillow are alleged to exist but I've tried unsuccessfully for several weeks to get them. Doors and Abbey Road are rumored; there aren't even good rumors for the rest. Is this what the young aspiring audiophile really wants? I doubt it. Maybe in a year or so it'll be more practical. >If you have to invest in analog sources beyond FM, try to limit >yourself to cassette. They are plentiful and cheap in the market >place, and you can record your own even cheaper. Won't work. Pre-recorded cassettes are in the same price range as LPs. Their sound quality varies widely; with rock, most are unbelievably worse than an LP and few are recorded with any sort of NR. They're cheapo cassette shells which aren't aligned right and squeak after a few playings. The worst of it is that the tape is pure crap; it will flake off oxide to grunge up your deck and even damage it. The few prerecorded cassettes I owned have been replaced by my own recordings--on good tape--from the LPs. <<ooopphhhh. Sorry about the flaming, but it's true.>> Grantges is right that you can record your own--but then you're back in the same old boat; you've got to have the LP and a turntable (or know someone who does, and there's a Genesis problem). A lot of people do that, incidentally: Buy the LP and copy it to cassette immediately. Play the tape forever or until it dies, then go back and make another copy of the LP. Still, it doesn't satisfy the goal of a system without a turntable. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Never offend with style when you can offend with substance.
mlhhh@emory.UUCP (Hugh Hansard) (09/18/84)
Gary, Try a Thorens table. They are all belt-driven and of very high quality. If you wish to stay under $400 then try the th-166. $500 will will get you a th-115 Mk II. Both are very good, but reflect different schools of design. The th-166 is manual, and the th-115 is semi-auto (lift only). Good luck in your quest. Hugh Hansard
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (09/19/84)
Well, this whole thing boils down to is 1. CD's are a more convenient format. 2. CD's are more tolerant of their environment (which is to say that technical slop is less likely to affect them). and 3. Records are more abundant. 4. Records with reasonable quality control and care can sound as good as their master. This is why I own both a CD player, a Cassette deck (for recording stuff to play in the car mostly), and a turntable. -Ron
pmr@drutx.UUCP (09/20/84)
OK, OK. I have to say this: CDs are quiet, they go loud, and they don't wear out. They are good as a supplemental signal source but the best CDs and CD playback equipment are not as good as their best analog counterparts (I can feel the flames already but this is something I've said since the introduction of this format). However, some day, just as the Phillips audio cassette format evolved, so will the CD format. Once enough $$$ are pumped into R&D, CDs will probably surpass the quality available with SOTA analog systems. This may take two years or twenty, but it will happen. Analog is a dying format. (Please don't quote me out of context.) The arguments about existing performances not being transferred to the CD format are valid arguments for still buying a quality analog turntable and cartridge. And as long as the analog format produces superior quality it motivates engineers to find out why and do something about it (let's hear it for free enterprise!). Yours for higher fidelity, Phil Rastocny AT&T-ISL ihnp4!drutx!pmr
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/22/84)
[...] There are a couple of other cassette sources Dick Dunn forgot to mention. 1) There <are> some prerecorded cassettes that are pretty good. I don't know them all as I buy very few, but Musical Heritage Society has some that are pretty good and (how can it be?) Book of the Month club. To say they are all bad is as off target as to say all CD's or all LP's are bad. 2) Some of us are fortunate to live within range of a really good FM station. With a good tuner and antenna farm, your source of music becomes semi-unlimited at better quality -or at least about as good - as you can get from your decks anyway. There are even magazines to tell you when your favorite pieces are coming up. I'm 40 miles from the World Trade Center with a RS FM antenna and can do well with at least 3 classical stations from NYC and probably some from Philly although I haven't tried the latter. Dick Grantges hound!rfg
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/22/84)
[.] Sorry I interpreted you as a neophyte with your original query (but B. and O.?!). I, too, still enjoy my hundreds of records and hope that I can do so for a long time yet. Ditto my cassettes. Somewhere my beloved 78's got lost, so I no longer need my 78 rpm table. I do wish that I had started CD earlier, but they didn't invent it fast enuf. And yes, CD'S are forcing some of the vinyl vendors to straighten up and fly right. We will all benefit from that. AS you have read I have suggested restraint in $$ invested in turntables. I have a confession to make (only partly revealed before). Several years ago I literally started saving my pennies for a CD player which I had seen coming for maybe 25 years. Unfortunately, I saved the price twice over before the product was ready. So, I updated my analog equipment for hopefully the last time. I went for the Sony PS-600 with a Shure V15-V. That's about $500 discount and the best I've ever had. I don't see more for me, but then, everyone has his own cost/effectiveness formulae. Dick Grantges hound!rfg
barrett@hpcnoe.UUCP (barrett) (09/28/84)
I too would like to have some information about turntables in the $200 to $500 price range. Manual tables are preferred (cueing is OK though). Dave Barrett hplabs!hp-dcd!barrett
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (09/28/84)
Grantges, on the matter of sources other than LPs: > There are a couple of other cassette sources Dick Dunn forgot to > mention. 1) There <are> some prerecorded cassettes that are pretty > good. I don't know them all as I buy very few, but Musical Heritage > Society has some that are pretty good and (how can it be?) Book of > the Month club. To say they are all bad is as off target as to say > all CD's or all LP's are bad. 2) Some of us are fortunate to live > within range of a really good FM station. With a good tuner and > antenna farm, your source of music becomes semi-unlimited at better > quality -or at least about as good - as you can get from your decks > anyway. There are even magazines to tell you when your favorite pieces > are coming up... Grantges and I discussed this by mail. The difference between his view and mine is that his taste tends toward classical (or more particularly, away from rock) where mine runs mostly to rock. What he says is quite true of classical music--there are many good tapes; the tape itself is reasonable quality and the recording is done with Dolby B; the shells are good. Moreover, in classical music you frequently have the option of choosing among several performances of the same piece--the emphasis is on the composer and composition. His statements about FM are also accurate for classical. In rock, the orientation is toward the performer and the performance--if you want the Grateful Dead performing "Dancin' in the Streets", it just won't do to substitute Martha and the Vandellas in the studio. And (let me qualify this carefully) I have yet to see a rock cassette of decent quality; in fact, I have yet to see one which was even equal in quality to what you'd get if you copied the vinyl LP to a good tape, using a decent turntable and cassette deck and NR. Rock really bites it on recording from FM. You rarely know what's coming up, and even if you could record it you're likely to end up losing the ends of a cut to a segue or DJ jabber-- hardly worth it for typically less than five minutes of music. Another factor that occurred to me recently is that rock is in somewhat of a slump (flames to /dev/null or at least move it to net.music) compared to, say, the period of 1962-197x (x somewhere in 4..8). That means that a lot of the "important" music of rock is on old LPs which might still be available as LPs but in any case have such low sales as to make it unlikely that they'll appear as CDs in the near future. An aging hippie such as myself won't have to buy many (if any) LPs--I've either got them or know someone who does. But the person trying to (re)build a collection of conventional rock (say wha?) has a job, and CDs are of little use here so far. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Cerebus for dictator!