labelle@hplabsc.UUCP (WB6YZZ La Belle) (04/11/85)
Although I strongly believe that no normal person can hear the differ-
ence between the two sampling techniques, I could never use BOSE speakers
for any serious testing of other audio equipment.
They are notorious for IM distortion, and low bass distortion. They
lack imaging quality which would be essential if looking for high freq-
uency phase distortion from sharp cutoff filters. BOSE 901's are essen-
tially a "gimmic" speaker that I would not even rank with other HI FI
equipment.
GEORGE
.
hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (04/13/85)
Thats right! The BOSE 901 is not a serious loudspeaker. The whole A-B is rubbish and should be discounted based on just that fact. Next time select a decent loudspeaker. e.g. B&W 808's Hedley.
ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (04/13/85)
> Although I strongly believe that no normal person can hear the differ- > ence between the two sampling techniques, I could never use BOSE speakers > for any serious testing of other audio equipment. > They are notorious for IM distortion, and low bass distortion. They > lack imaging quality which would be essential if looking for high freq- > uency phase distortion from sharp cutoff filters. BOSE 901's are essen- > tially a "gimmic" speaker that I would not even rank with other HI FI > equipment. > GEORGE We couldn't hear any difference over headphones, either. More seriously, you are making what is actually an important point about any experiment in which no difference was found between two situations: maybe a difference might have appeared under other conditions. This is true. To conclude that it is impossible to hear any difference between 16bit/analog filter and 14 bit/4x oversampling, it would be necessary to conduct an unbounded number of experiments, using all possible combinations of amplifiers, speakers, listening rooms, listeners, and cats. This, of course, we cannot do. So we do the next best thing: we report the conditions of the experiment as accurately as we can. If you feel that some aspect of the experiment might have colored the results, you are free to try a similar experiment without that aspect and report YOUR results. Perhaps your listening panel will then hear a difference. If they do, make sure you have controlled the things that lead people to hear nonexistent differences: make sure you've matched the levels of the CD players to within 1%, make sure you've synchronized them accurately, and make sure your listeners don't know which one they're hearing until after they've made up their minds (this last is much less important if the ultimate conclusion is that there's no audible difference than it is if people think one is consistently better than the other). Oh, yes. I should warn you that it's probably not a good idea for you to go around with your nose so high in the air. You might scrape it on the ceiling. --Andrew Koenig
ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (04/16/85)
GEORGE, at HP Labs in Palo Alto, made the following sweeping claim: > Although I strongly believe that no normal person can hear the differ- > ence between the two sampling techniques, I could never use BOSE speakers > for any serious testing of other audio equipment. > They are notorious for IM distortion, and low bass distortion. They > lack imaging quality which would be essential if looking for high freq- > uency phase distortion from sharp cutoff filters. BOSE 901's are essen- > tially a "gimmic" speaker that I would not even rank with other HI FI > equipment. Now, Hedley Rannie has jumped into the fray: > Thats right! The BOSE 901 is not a serious loudspeaker. The whole A-B is > rubbish and should be discounted based on just that fact. > > Next time select a decent loudspeaker. e.g. B&W 808's Hedley, I think you made a mistake by leaving the :-) off your posting. To me, it's pretty clearly sarcastic, but I think most readers will miss it. GEORGE's posting irritated me when I first saw it, and I didn't really stop to think why -- I just let loose with a straightforward rebuttal followed by a wisecrack. On further reflection, though, I have understood why it bothered me so much, and I want to post my analysis so that others will see it too. GEORGE is using an argument of a general type that is often quite insidious, and is certainly not limited to discussing audio components (though it is used astonishing often in that context). I have heard it called the "argument from intimidation." This is a variant of the old-fashioned "ad hominem" attack (in which you "rebut" an argument by attacking the character of the person putting forth the argument). The difference is that instead of attacking the person who made the opposing argument, you attack the listener. Thus, the general argument sounds something like this: "Only a fool would fail to agree that ..." The intimidation comes when your listener realizes that not agreeing with you immediately will brand the listener as a fool. Observe how GEORGE uses this technique. In his first paragraph, he says that he could never use Bose speakers for serious testing. Could, not would. In other words, he is subject to some objective, external compulsion. His own choices and opinions have nothing to do with it. Unstated is the assumption that this compulsion is so obvious that everyone must be aware of it. What is the basis for this compulsion? "They are notorious for IM distortion, and low bass distortion." In other words, everyone knows Bose speakers are trash. Well, I don't. I think the phrase "they are notorious" is a cop-out that really means "I heard somewhere but don't remember where." I think that GEORGE, like many people, has formed opinions by listening to the rumor mill instead of listening to the speakers themselves. Furthermore, by his choice of words, he has implied that anyone who doesn't agree with him is ignorant. GEORGE, if your opinion is based on facts, let's see them. If you're summarizing a review you saw somewhere, tell us where. If you're merely repeating rumors, say so. If your opinions come from listening to the speakers yourself, tell us what you heard, in a way that will let us repeat the experiment for ourselves. But as long as you try to intimidate people out of thinking thoughts that might lead them to disagree with you, people like me are going to point out just what you're doing. --Andrew Koenig