sasaki@harvard.ARPA (Marty Sasaki) (04/23/85)
I was chatting with my boss and asked him about getting the telephone
wire (25 and 50 pair cables) that was going to be ripped out when the
current telephone system is replaced. He asked me why I wanted it, and I
told him about using it for speaker cable. He then asked me what I was
talking about and I mentioned skin effect, etc. He correctly pointed out
most of the effects were noticeable only at radio frequencies. He said
it was a scam, and that I should save my money. I told him that I wasn't
spending any money, only an hour of stripping and soldering the cable.
He then came up with an idea for the ultimate in speaker cables. First
you roll up your carpets. Then you lay out four strips of aluminum foil.
Then you attach wire to the end of the aluminum foil strips, and put the
carpet back. Then wire up your electronics and your speakers. Loads of
skin surface area, lots of conductor, no unsightly wires to trip over.
Okay, what about this? I don't want to re-ignite the flames about cable,
but could someone who believes that speaker cable does make a difference
mail me the argument?
--
----------------
Marty Sasaki net: sasaki@harvard.{arpa,uucp}
Havard University Science Center phone: 617-495-1270
One Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA 02138don@umd5.UUCP (04/23/85)
[] > > He then came up with an idea for the ultimate in speaker cables. First > you roll up your carpets. Then you lay out four strips of aluminum foil. > Then you attach wire to the end of the aluminum foil strips, and put the > carpet back. Then wire up your electronics and your speakers. Loads of > skin surface area, lots of conductor, no unsightly wires to trip over. > > -Marty Sasaki I know you can't solder the wires to aluminum, and I don't think welding wires to aluminum foil is very practical -- I think a better idea would be to use copper flashing or copper braid for much the same reasons as above, only then you can get a reliable connection to your wires by soldering them. -- --==---==---==-- "Space, the final frontier ..." What ?!!? No more ?!? But it's a frontier of frontiers !! --==---==---==-- ___________ _____ ---- _____ \ //---- IDIC ----- _\_______//_ ---- ----------- ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 CSNET: don@umd5 SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain (transient user of Don Preuss' account) UUCP: {seismo, rlgvax, allegra, brl-bmd, nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don
rkl@ahuta.UUCP (k.laux) (04/24/85)
REFERENCES: <70@harvard.ARPA> Foil strips for long length speaker cables? I really don't think so. You should be concerned about the inductance of the cable. Mostly recommended for speaker cables are large gauge, stranded wire (18 guage min., 16 ok, 14 best; length in the range of 6 to 10 feet). This gives a large surface area for conductivity. However, running cable for longer lengths will suffer degradation because of inductance (mainly at lower frequencies). High capacitance wire will cancel out the unwanted inductance. I have speaker cables by Discwasher called Smog Lifters. They are constructed of high-speed computer cable - high capacitance, 24 gauge stranded wire. Many wires are then woven into the cable (sort of forms a tube) to minimize outside interference. Last I knew they came in 3 and 5 meter lengths or in large spools that the stereo dealer could cut to length. They really did make a significant improvement all the way around. R. Kevin Laux Software Vendor Tech Support ATTIS Lincroft ahuta!rkl (mtuxo!rkl on May 1st) 201-576-3610
ben@moncol.UUCP (Bennett Broder) (04/25/85)
>Okay, what about this? I don't want to re-ignite the flames about cable, >but could someone who believes that speaker cable does make a difference >mail me the argument? Good speaker cables DO make a difference. I am not an audio engineer, I am a critical listener. In my system, installing Monster cable noticably tightened up the bass and improved transient response. Older recordings, where the bass seemed lose and boomy are less objectionable, and cymbals are slightly more natural sounding. Oddly enough, even piano music was affected. The hammer strikes are somewhat sharper and more clearly delineated. Although the effects may seem subtle at first, after extended listening I feel they are definitely worth the money. {The better the rest of your equipment is, the more difference quality cables will make} BTW, quality interconnects are even more important than speaker cable. I was quite surprised at the differences I observed switching the interconnect between my MC cartridge and preamp between the free stuff and the various brands of audiophile cable. If your interest in cables stems from a desire to get the best possible sound from stereo system (and not as a purely academic exercise), then you will be concerned with whether replacing your current cables makes an audible improvement in the sound you hear. The scientific facts are secondary, I assume you would much rather spend hard earned money on sonic improvements, not theoretical advantages. Fortunately, most high end stores are confident enough in the advantages of their cables that they will let you borrow a set or buy them with a money back guarantee. I suggest you do this. If you hear a difference, great, if not, you haven't lost a dime in the process. Ben Broder ..ihnp4!princeton!moncol!ben
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (04/26/85)
> > Foil strips for long length speaker cables? I really don't think > so. You should be concerned about the inductance of the cable. Mostly I don't see why the foil strips wouldn't be low inductance. > High capacitance wire will cancel out the unwanted > inductance. Ahem, high capacitance wire doesn't seem appropriate, either. > I have speaker cables by Discwasher called Smog Lifters. They > are constructed of high-speed computer cable - high capacitance, 24 gauge > stranded wire. Excuse me, but my computer wire is not high-capacitance. It is 24 gauge solid wire.
saf@clyde.UUCP (Steve Falco) (04/26/85)
> I know you can't solder the wires to aluminum, and I don't think welding > wires to aluminum foil is very practical -- I think a better idea would be > to use copper flashing or copper braid for much the same reasons as above, > only then you can get a reliable connection to your wires by soldering them. As it turns out, you can actually solder to aluminum foil with conventional solder but it is not easy - you have to scrape through the oxide with a well tinned tip. (Don't bother disagreeing - I've done it.) There are also "special" solders made for aluminum. They are typically 100% tin with a special flux. I have used aluminum flashing in the past for making shields because aluminum is cheaper and easier to find than copper. I don't recommend cooking quality aluminum foil because it rips too easily - but it will take solder! Steve Falco AT&T Bell Laboratories
daveb@rtech.ARPA (Dave Brower) (04/27/85)
> In my system, installing Monster cable > noticably tightened up the bass and improved transient response. Replacing what? 22 guage zipcord? Whenever I want speaker cable, I go down to a nearbly electrical supply house and get me some 'o dat big ugly 12 ga. interconnect wire at cents/foot. Other than aesthetics, what more does monster cable give me for the incredible price? -- {amdahl, sun}!rtech!daveb | "Why do we have to live in boxes? I hate {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!daveb | boxes." "Calm down, the 60's are over."
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (04/29/85)
In article <638@ahuta.UUCP>, rkl@ahuta.UUCP (k.laux) writes: > I have speaker cables by Discwasher called Smog Lifters. They > are constructed of high-speed computer cable - high capacitance, 24 gauge > stranded wire. High-speed computer cable made from high capacitance 24 gauge stranded wire? Sounds like something invented by a marketing drone. When I hear "high speed computer cable", I think of the coax used to wire Crays. But high capacitance is of no value. -- I speak for myself and no one else. Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA
prk@charm.UUCP (Paul Kolodner) (04/30/85)
1. "High-capacitance, high-speed computer cable"? Computer cable is not high-speed. High capacitance means low speed. To get high speed out of a coax cable despite its high capacitance, you have to terminate it properly, so that it acts like a transmission line. 2. Gold-plated interconnects: I had a chat recently with an engineer at Keithley Corp (specialists in low-current, low-voltage dc measurements) about the poor connectors in my stereo system. He said that, despite the corrosion resistance of gold-plated connectors, they pefer plain old nickel-plated ones for critical applications, since gold plating rubs off so easily. Of course, the difference in electrical conductivities between the two metals is irrelevant here. He also said that plain old banana plugs are extremely well engineered and make very good connections, due to their springyness. I would guess (and I might make a measurement or two to confirm my guess) that a) the resistance of a banana-plug connection is only about 0.01 Ohms (matches my experience in other contexts) and that b) the "shot noise" (due to the fact that current flows through metal-to-metal connections via microscopic needles) is completely negligible in this application. I conclude that banana plugs are fine for speakers. Any comments?
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (04/30/85)
[] "What more does Monster cable give me (than aesthetics) over my trusty 12 gauge?" Well, aesthetics covers a lot, but then there's: The testimonials of all 173 certified Golden Ears of America plus a few uncertified golden ears. The knowledge that you are using solid wire where Monster uses big round wires for base, middle sized wires for middles and teensy-weensy, itty- bitty wires for treble. All wound neatly and encapsulated in super clear vinyl guaranteed not to color the sound in any way. The knowledge that you paid more for your interconnect wire than practically anybody. ...Practically? Yes, there are even more expensive wires than Monster Cable. But of course, they aren't any better. The ability to leave the wire exposed AND ask people please not to step on it. Certainly all these, if not really persuasive, at least give you an itch that only your wallet can scratch? Or are you just plain old fashioned, like me. -- "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg
pmr@drutx.UUCP (Rastocny) (04/30/85)
[] OK, OK. You've got my attention now. For those of you who listen with your wallet, listen to 12-gauge zip and be happy. For those of you who listen with your ears, there's a recent publication by Hitachi (No. TD 23-929, December, 1984) that explains in detail their theory on why esoteric wires sound better than standard cupric types. Excerpts follow: "...The author (Osao Kamada, Chief Engineer) first proposed a theory that copper bioxide (Cu2O) impurity contained in conventional copper as semi-conductive material interrupts linear transmission of audio signals and finally created created perfect copper structure named LC-OFC (linear crystal oxygen free copper) for a wide range transmission, i.e., audio and video. "...sound effect of OFC Conductor evaluated by famous music artists, crytics and audio engineers for these seven or eight years. It is evaluated as followings. (1) rich and transparent (2) sounds wide range to both side low and high (3) exact orientation (4) sharp sound image (5) crisp transient " Although the translation suffers (cupric bioxide Cu2O???), I think you get the general idea. The article continues explaining that there was no obvious measurable difference from standard laboratory evaluation techniques to explain these observations. Then it continues saying that its the capacitance that this copper-oxide junction introduces that effects the linear transmission properties. "...like having 50,000 small capacitors in series with the wire per meter." Their manufacturing technique reduced this amount to about 2,000 per meter. Reprints of this article are available for a small fee from Hitachi Cable America, Inc. 777 Third Avenue New York, NY 10017 It's nice to know that scientists have finally measured what golden ears have claimed to hear for years. Yours for higher fidelity, Phil Rastocny AT&T-ISL ihnp4!drutx!pmr
pmr@drutx.UUCP (Rastocny) (05/02/85)
[] I made a mistake when quoting the Hitachi paper. I claimed that their process reduced the number of Cu2O junctions from 50,000/meter to 2,000/meter. The preliminary process did, the final process didn't. The final process actually reduced the number of junctions to about 19/meter. Yours for higher fidelity, Phil Rastocny AT&T-ISL ihnp4!drutx!pmr
sjc@angband.UUCP (Steve Correll) (05/03/85)
> ...there's a recent publication by Hitachi (No. TD 23-929, December, > 1984) that explains in detail their theory on why esoteric wires sound better > than standard cupric types...The article continues explaining that there was > no obvious measurable difference from standard laboratory evaluation > techniques to explain these observations. Then it continues saying that its > the capacitance that this copper-oxide junction introduces that effects the > linear transmission properties. "...like having 50,000 small capacitors in > series with the wire per meter."... Perhaps I misunderstand this due to lack of context, but since capacitors in series are analogous to resistors in parallel, putting 50,000 small ones in series is equivalent to a single capacitor 50,000 times as small as each of the individual ones. Since the impedance of a capacitor is inversely related to its size and directly related to frequency, a *very* small one ought to have a horrendously large and measurable impedance at low audio frequencies. I've never seen such a phenomenon myself. -- --Steve Correll sjc@s1-b.ARPA, ...!decvax!decwrl!mordor!sjc, or ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!sjc