lauck@bergil.DEC (05/31/85)
The quality of stereo imaging at live concerts has been called into question
recently by net.audio, as have, by implication, those audiophiles who expect
concert hall realism in their audio systems. I've had some bad experiences
in some halls, especially with bad seats or nearly empty halls. But this is
NOT always the case.
Recently, I attended a National Philharmonic concert at Kennedy center in
D.C. The program was Mahler's Third Symphony. I sat in the 8th row, right
side. In all respects the sound staging and imaging were superb, exceeding
the capabilities of any high end audio system I've heard. This was not a
visual illusion, since my perceptions were unaffected by closing my eyes.
I did notice one curious effect. In several of the loudest "tutti" passages
the sound levels became suffiently intense that my ears began to distort.
The result was a brief "collapse" of the sound-stage and a blending of the
individual sounds. I have never noticed this effect before in a live
concert. Perhaps it was a result of my closeness to the orchestra. I would
estimate that the peak levels reached 115db.
In short, the qualities of imaging that the high end is seeking are indeed
the qualities obtainable in the concert hall. I recommend that any doubters
purchase good seats in a good hall for a good concert.
Tony Lauck
...decvax!decwrl!rhea!bergil!lauckgreg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (06/03/85)
> The quality of stereo imaging at live concerts has been called into question > recently by net.audio, as have, by implication, those audiophiles who expect > concert hall realism in their audio systems. I've had some bad experiences > in some halls, especially with bad seats or nearly empty halls. But this is > NOT always the case. > ... > > Tony Lauck > ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!bergil!lauck I've raised this question in articles before. The point that I was trying to make is not that there is no "imaging" or "soundstage" at a live performance, but rather that it seems very different from what some audiophiles on the net (and a number of writers in such pubs as "Absolute Sound") seem to expect from their audio gear. What I specifically question is the notion that, in a "realistic" recording/playback situation (one that sounds as much as possible like what you would hear live) of a full orchestra, one should be able to isolate the sound of individual instruments as coming from a fixed point in space, and that one should be able to determine the full seating arrangement of the orchestra. If this were true, it would defeat the entire purpose of choosing the "standard" seating of an orchestra, which is to provide as great a blend of instrumental sounds as possible while maintaining the clarity of inner voices. In other words, if you can clearly hear the doubling of a clarinet part and can isolate the two players on a recording, something is wrong either in the playing or the recording, since the intent of such doubling is to provide the effect of a single, fuller-sounding instrument. If, at an orchestral concert or opera, I'm aware of individual sounds emanating from the individual seating positions of the instruments, I feel I have a poor seat. Some speakers (and other audio equipment) with rises in the upper middle range and lower treble have the effect of emphasizing detail to the point of pulling apart the individual strands of the music and thereby damaging the effect of a unified orchestral "fabric" that you would hear live. I have to mention that, of late, I find well recorded CD's more likely to reproduce the blend of instruments that I've heard live without the exaggeration of separation (not referring to that between l/r channels as much as that between individual instruments, however they are placed) that I hear on a number of analogue recordings. I know that this specifically contradicts the claims of "harshness" and "overanalytical" qualities attributed to CD's (and which I heard myself in the first releases on the first players), but it represents what I've heard and perceived rather than what I've read. - Greg Paley
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (06/07/85)
[] As I said in a recent posting, there is an incredible range of sound heard in concert halls depending on the hall, where you sit, etc. I certainly agree with the point that orchestra seating arrangements are intended to create a blend. However, in many halls, at the front center of the balcony, you are looking down on the orchestra from above - a position the conductor probably did not have in mind when arranging his forces. This is also the perspective of many micing arrangements. It is to be expected, therefore, that the reproduction will pretty well allow pinpointing of most sources. As long as it all holds together and blends, that is probably a good thing. Now, given reasonable imaging, ultra-fidelity (either CD or LP, choose your own poison) everything of real golden ear quality. You are practically never going to confuse the reproduction with the real thing except in certain situatiuons: You are in the next room. You can often be surprised that you thought someone was in the next room when it was "just" a recording. This can also happen with recordings of small forces. You can persuade yourself that there really <is> a string quartet in your living room as long as you are not in that room. I am not referring to visual cues, only auditory ones. I wonder if the new AR magic speaker will change that result. While on the subject let me relate an interesting deception that happened to me. Before most of you were born (1953) a group of guys from my school came easton an interviewing trip. Over the weekend we took in Radio City Music hall, sitting in the balcony. We were very impressed with the acoustics of the hall. Especially when the orchestra was playing classical sounding stuff, why you could look right down and pinpoint each instrument. The flute, the chimes, they really carried well in that huge, cavernous hall. A couple of days later I was being interviewed by Harry Olson at RCA in Princeton. Even I had heard of him and, of course, I was properly awed. He mentioned that he had been involved with the design of the Radio City sound system and I really gave him a big compliment when I revealed how impressed we had been - and we had not even suspected that sound reinforcement was being used! Of course I should have known it was, but I didn't. And we detected no clues. The imaging with the live performers was that close. The boost that subtle. I understand they used to have a mixing console right out in the middle of the audience downstairs, but I never saw it. -- "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg