tdn@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Thomas Newton) (09/04/85)
[If I've posted this message to the wrong newsgroup(s), advice on where it
should be posted would be more appreciated than flamage.]
Does anyone out there have any useful comments on the sound quality of various
CDs, especially those produced from analog recordings? I've noticed that the
amount of hiss on the analog albums I have ranges from very low (Billy Joel:
An Innocent Man) to very high (Stevie Nicks: Bella Donna). I got a CD player
largely for sound quality; while I am willing to put up with a certain amount
of hiss on analog albums (out of necessity), I want to avoid buying CDs that
have a lot of hiss (why pay $16 for a CD when one could pay $7 for a LP with
the same sound quality?).
In particular, if I had known how much hiss was on the "Bella Donna" album,
I would not have bought it in CD form. The first track starts off with a fair
amount of hiss, which within about two seconds increases in volume to a really
horrible level. The hiss is also "sharper" than the hiss on the other analog
CDs that I own. Considering that most of the songs on the album were written
around 1980, the sound quality is inexcusable.
Another CD to avoid is Simon and Garfunkel's "Bridge Over Troubled Water".
I haven't had the "pleasure" of listening to this one personally, but another
student had the misfortune of buying it and a mutual friend told me about it.
I went and got my tape of the album (to see if the hiss was worse than normal
cassette levels) and noticed that Columbia hadn't even taken the trouble to
Dolby-encode it!!! When I played it, the sound was downright painful!! I've
heard that the CD is *believe-it-or-not* WORSE, because every last detail of
the noise on the master is perfectly reproduced.
On a completely different subject, does anyone know why an artist would make
one digitally-recorded album, then go back to analog recording? Apparently,
both Billy Joel and Bob Dylan have done this (while 'The Nylon Curtain' and
'Infidels' were digitally recorded, 'An Innocent Man' and Dylan's latest CD
were recorded using analog equipment). Is digital equipment hard to find?
-- Thomas Newton
Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.ARPArfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/04/85)
[] ...the sound quality is inexcusable... ...is digital equipment hard to find? 1) Why not do what you would do with a bad analog record? ... take it back. That would help get the message across. 2) If the artist goes in for a lot of artistic hanky-panky like multi-channel mushing around with lots of signal processing on various tracks(flanging here, compressing to hell there, fuzzing everywhere) that sort of thing is difficult and/or rare to do digitally. That could be why. Or it could just be he's tired of waiting for Japan, Inc. to allow him time to press a disc. -- "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg
gene@batman.UUCP (Gene Mutschler) (09/05/85)
(this really should have been mailed, but our mailing system is such that 'r' almost never works...) > Does anyone out there have any useful comments on the sound quality of various > CDs, especially those produced from analog recordings? I've noticed that the > amount of hiss on the analog albums I have ranges from very low (Billy Joel: > An Innocent Man) to very high (Stevie Nicks: Bella Donna). I got a CD player > largely for sound quality; while I am willing to put up with a certain amount > of hiss on analog albums (out of necessity), I want to avoid buying CDs that > have a lot of hiss (why pay $16 for a CD when one could pay $7 for a LP with > the same sound quality?). Hiss has never bothered me as much as ticks and pops, since it is a constant source and you can tune it out. But, more to the point, it makes sense to me (fiscally as well as aesthetically) not to buy pop music in general and older pop music in particular. Most pop music, in addition to having about 3 db of dynamic range, is recorded by mixing down a bunch of analog tracks so that a song may have been through a couple of tape generations before the "master" is even made. The result--hiss. If you want old pop stuff on CD, you ought to at least wait for a few years, until CDs cost less than LPs. In the meantime, buy the LP and immediately dub it to a cassette and then put the LP away. The extra hiss added by the dubbing is not as objectionable as the degradation of an LP with repeated playings. When the cassette craps out, you make another dub with your still-new LP. > > Another CD to avoid is Simon and Garfunkel's "Bridge Over Troubled Water". This was one of the most over-produced albums in the history of western civilization, so it's got more hiss than usual. (I don't mean over produced pejoratively--I'm a great fan of heavily-produced music-- Phil Spector and Paul Simon in particular.) > > On a completely different subject, does anyone know why an artist would make > one digitally-recorded album, then go back to analog recording? Apparently, > both Billy Joel and Bob Dylan have done this (while 'The Nylon Curtain' and > 'Infidels' were digitally recorded, 'An Innocent Man' and Dylan's latest CD > were recorded using analog equipment). Is digital equipment hard to find? > -- Thomas Newton > Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA That(lack of equipment) seems to be part of the problem in that a lot of studios have tens of thousands of dollars invested in multi-track analog equipment. But it's also possible that you can't do all of the overdubbing and pan-potting tricks with digital, which would tend to cramp the style of many producers...Which is a pity, since digital is at it's most useful when making an n-th generation dub that is guaranteed to sound like the original. Maybe later generation digital recorders and mixing boards will address this problem (if indeed it is a problem). -- Gene Mutschler {ihnp4 seismo ctvax}!ut-sally!batman!gene Burroughs Corp. Austin Research Center cmp.barc@utexas-20.ARPA (512) 258-2495
sasaki@harvard.ARPA (Marty Sasaki) (09/05/85)
If you take care of your LPs, and play them on a reasonably good, well
adjusted player, you should be able to get more than 100 plays on the LP
before noticeable sound degradation takes place. This is especially
true on mid-fi systems. The problem is that most people don't take
good care of their LPs, and don't take the time to set up their
players.
Don't get me wrong, dubbing to tape is probably the best compromise
for most people. Cassettes are easy to handle, don't require careful
cleaning, and sound decently good. I prefer to take care of my LPs and
get the higher fidelity that they give me over dubbed cassettes.
Fanatical Golden Ears, please don't flame. I know that with your
systems you can hear the difference after a single play. :-)
--
----------------
Marty Sasaki net: sasaki@harvard.{arpa,uucp}
Havard University Science Center phone: 617-495-1270
One Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA 02138spp@ucbvax.ARPA (Stephen P Pope) (09/05/85)
So far as I know, only a minority of recording studios use digital
multitrack recording (due to the expense) and even fewer use
digital consoles for mixdown. Quite a few use digital mastering.
There is a good reason for this. One major flaw of analog
magnetic tape recorders is the IM distortion. Clearly, this
will show up the most if analog tape is used AFTER all the tracks
are mixed together. Thus, digital mastering, and digital
re-mastering of old albums from the multitrack tapes.
As for why artists would give up on digital after one album,
I hypothesize that too many things went wrong the first time.
I heard of one story where an artist -- Stevie Wonder -- did
a digitally mastered track on an early Sony PCM system, at a
studio in L.A., and after a critical mixdown, a glitch was discovered
on the newly-created master. Needless to say, Stevie did
not use the Sony PCM system thereafter. This was about seven
years ago; clearly things have improved since then.
steve pope (ucbvax!spp)rdp@teddy.UUCP (09/05/85)
In article <337@harvard.ARPA> sasaki@harvard.UUCP (Marty sasaki) writes: >If you take care of your LPs, and play them on a reasonably good, well >adjusted player, you should be able to get more than 100 plays on the LP >before noticeable sound degradation takes place. This is especially >true on mid-fi systems. The problem is that most people don't take >good care of their LPs, and don't take the time to set up their >players. > >Don't get me wrong, dubbing to tape is probably the best compromise >for most people. Cassettes are easy to handle, don't require careful >cleaning, and sound decently good. I prefer to take care of my LPs and >get the higher fidelity that they give me over dubbed cassettes. > >Fanatical Golden Ears, please don't flame. I know that with your >systems you can hear the difference after a single play. :-) >-- Actually, the really frantically fanatical golden ears can hear a difference even before a single play! :-) Actually, several researches have shown that, given a properly set up reasonably high quality tone arm/cartridge/turntable combination exhibiting minimal friction, correct mass and compliance matches, proper (not necessarily minimal) and good handling and cleaning techniques, the lifetime of LP's can be considered indefinite. The real killers seem to be UV radiation (makes the vinyl brittle) smog products (same things and it slowly glogs the grooves) and so forth. These effects, however, are ussually hidden by people's ineptness. This includes trying to track a cartridge at to light a tracking force, stylus wear, bad cleaning habits (which sometimes are worse than no cleaning habits) etc. etc.. Dick Pierce
knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) (09/05/85)
I bought the Supertramp "Crime of the Century" album and have found
it to be MUCH worse than the disc of the same thing, especially worse
than the Mobile Fidelity mastering of the same thing. I have also found that
in general, (Dark Side, in particular) the Japanses EMI recordings are *MUCH*
better than than the domestic CD's.(in this case the Harvest).
'`'`'`
Ken
'`'`'` dsi@unccvax.UUCP (Dataspan Inc) (09/06/85)
Pop CD's have about 3 dB dynamic range ??? Ha! What do you have in
your tape monitor loop, an Optimod or Dorrough DAP? Please buy a copy
of "Tropico" (Pat Benetar) and crank your amplifier up to a comfortably
loud listening level. I'll bet your Pioneer SX-780's lights blink to
half intensity on peaks!!! -:) -:) -:) -:)
Seriously, though, a lot of the pop CD's do have elzippo dynamic
range. The CD format did nothing for "Purple Rain" (sounds just as busy
as ever, but what do you expect?). ONE of the songs on "Diana" however
(ooooohhh oooohhhh, Immmmm miissssinnnnnneeennn uuuuuuu....) though
has superior clarity and definition. I think it is all digital...
Here are some other "pop" CD reviews from a technical point of view:
"Tea for the Tillerman" (Cat Stevens)
I prefer the Mobile Fidelity UHQR and/or regular half speed to this.
Some of the selections reveal some very nasty bad channel-to-channel phase
errors. On one of the cuts (the name escapes me right now) there is
this neat effect where you hear old Cat as if he was badly off mike... this
is not present in the analog recordings. Surface noise is decent, and
the definition on most of the side 1 selections ("Miles from Nowhere,
Wild World, Sad Lisa" ) have good definition. Dynamic range is good
although I don't think they are getting the full dynamic range out of the
A/D converter.
"Synchronicity" (Police)
Superior in CD. Not "digital-audioey" at all, with good separation
and very low noise level. Cymbal transients in "Wrapped Around your Finger"
much cleaner than with my B&O MMC 20CL cartridge. What is also neat about
this CD is that bass is clean and tight.
"I Robot" (Alan Parsons)
This CD is BRIGHT!!!! I mean, can we say differentiated! Very harsh
and strident and irritating to listen to (I like the album very much, though).
"Court and Spark" (Joni Mitchell)
Nominal, compares extremely closely with the Nautilus halfspeed. However,
one of the burning questions about mistracking has finally been answered:
on side 2, "Down to You" has several places where Roberta Joan of Saskatoon
overdubs her voice in at least 4 or 5 layers. I have always heard a bit of
clipping in these passages, on the regular album, CD-4 QuadraDisc(tm),
Nautilus, and now the CD. It's on the master tape, folks.
"Who's Next" (The Who)
This is a genuinely satisfying rerelease on CD. Despite their slimy
and raise-hell attitude, all of the immediacy and realism of the original
comes shining through. There is actually talent on this record, and you
can finally hear it (MCA must be pressing them on the same set of stampers
used when originally issued). The separation on "Won't Get Fooled Again", while
that clichey overstereoey mix (because people had ceramic cartridges then
with 3 dB separation) is neat because if you play just the left channel,
you can hear chairs squeaking, papers shuffling, and all kinds of other
neat stuff. If you like this record, you will LOVE the CD!!!!
"Twin Sons of Different Mothers" (Weisberg/Fogelberg)
Don't waste your money. Yeah, it's clean, but I bought it in a fit
of brain-lock thinking it would be just that much more awwwsome than the
CBS Mastersound. "Twin Sons" is also very noisy, and the two vocal selections
have the living s**t compressed out of them.
"Thriller" (Jackson)
Borrowed this one. I think it's neat because "Wanna Be Starting Something"
has got to be the all-time record setter for high frequency content. It has
the same sound quality as . . .
"Moving Pictures"
(Rush)
Also very clean, very good. Lack of digitalaudioeyness. Compares to the
Polygram import quite favourably.
'Nuff said. I'd like to know how "Secret Life of Plants" (Stevie Wonder)
sounds before I plunk down $40. This one is supposed to be digitally mastered,
right (on Sony PCM-1). If I were Stevie, though, I'd use a type "C" recorder
to store it on, and not the U-Matic that Sony suggests.....
System: TEAC A-10 (Burr Brown D/A with Yamaha oversampling chip set, the
overwhelming favourite of CD manufacturers everywhere), Accuphase E203,
ADS 800 (somethings), B&O MMC20CL on BIC 980, and lots of 8 gauge THHN
wire everywhere..
Comments?
David Anthony
CDE
DataSpan, Incgig@ritcv.UUCP (gordon ) (09/08/85)
> I got a CD player > largely for sound quality; while I am willing to put up with a certain amount > of hiss on analog albums (out of necessity), I want to avoid buying CDs that > have a lot of hiss (why pay $16 for a CD when one could pay $7 for a LP with > the same sound quality?). > > -- Thomas Newton > Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** At least if you are buying a CD at a store (vs. mail order), there is no reason why you should not be able to listen before purchasing. Given the price of CDs and the fact that, with reasonable care, the sound won't degrade, the local CD store does this for me regularly, no questions asked.
john@gcc-bill.ARPA (John Allred) (09/09/85)
In article <282@unccvax.UUCP> dsi@unccvax.UUCP (Dataspan Inc) writes: > >"I Robot" (Alan Parsons) > This CD is BRIGHT!!!! I mean, can we say differentiated! Very harsh >and strident and irritating to listen to (I like the album very much, though). > I don't know what version of "I Robot" you listened to, but my Mobile Fidelity mastering sounds superb. Not irritating at all! It's one of my CD demo disks. -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!john
keithe@tekgvs.UUCP (Keith Ericson) (09/09/85)
In article <337@harvard.ARPA> sasaki@harvard.UUCP (Marty sasaki) writes: >If you take care of your LPs, and play them on a reasonably good, well >adjusted player, you should be able to get more than 100 plays on the LP >before noticeable sound degradation takes place. > But I notice *snap*crackle*pop* on brand-new records, too! How on earth can I ever get good sound from the trash record companies keep putting into their (my) plastic?! > >Don't get me wrong, dubbing to tape is probably the best compromise >for most people. Cassettes are easy to handle, don't require careful >cleaning, and sound decently good. I prefer to take care of my LPs and >get the higher fidelity that they give me over dubbed cassettes. > I agree with the dubbing to tape idea, and also that cassettes are going to present an inferior version of the sound. I transcribe my records to Beta HiFi and get the freedom from LP worries, plus I get 4-1/2 hours of sound on a single $5-$6 tape! In fact, I'm getting to the point that my Beta audio-only tapes will soon outnumber the video tapes (unless I can free up the bucks for my CD player <wish, sigh, hope...>.) keith -- Keith Ericson at TekLabs (resident factious factotum) Tektronix, PO 500, MS 58-383 Beaverton OR 97077 (503)627-6042 uucp: [ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4|(and_many_others)]!tektronix!tekgvs!keithe CSnet: keithe@tek ARPAnet: keithe.tek@rand-relay