rafaeld@teklabs.UUCP (Rafael De Arce) (09/23/85)
Yes! I bought the Shure V15-VMR... and I'm not sure how I feel about this disappointment. So for now I will blame the stereo system and/or myself. Yes, I followed the alignment instructions to the letter that came with the cartridge. Twice! No, I don't have a preamp (Didn't think I needed [or wanted] one). So what's the problem? !#@~% &*^ I lost my bass response! Have you ever listened to music without bass? (Very sick.) I switched to the CD to see if maybe it was something else. Like magic! The bass reappeared. So I put the old (cheapie) cartridge back on and behold... the bass was back, again. I'm just about ready to ship this sucker back to the factory for an evaluation but first I thought I'd consult with the net. I don't think this series is a bad series (V15-VMR) since many people both on and off the net, recommended it. Is their something subtle that I should have done or something I should know about this cartridge to recover the bass that is on the LP. Thanks for the replies in the past and thank you for any suggestions you may pass along to me again.
bill@videovax.UUCP (William K. McFadden) (09/24/85)
Is it possible you wired one channel out of phase? It seems this would
affect bass response since the output of both speakers would tend to cancel.
--
Bill McFadden
Net address: ...{ucbvax,ihnp4,uw-beaver,decvax}! Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!videovax!bill P.O. Box 500 MS 58-594
Beaverton, OR 97077
"How can I prove I am not crazy to people who are?" (503) 627-6920mohler@drune.UUCP (MohlerDS) (09/25/85)
It is not unheard of, for phono-cartridges to have the connector pins mismarked (although in Shure's case it would surprise me). Check your connections to make shure *(-- that you didn't mis-connect any of the wires, then reverse the connections on one channel and see if your bass returns. Also it is not uncommon to have the cartridges sound change considerably during the first few hours of play (as the mechanism breaks in - although, again in Shure's case I would be surprised). It is also possible you received a DOA V15 VMR and just need to return it. Another short note to you high end audiopiles out there ... You should listen seriously to the new Shure Ultra 500! While some people thought Shure wasn't making the best cartridges they knew how to make, Shure went and built a tweeked version of the V15 VMR and it is a very fine cartridge!! Since the Ultra 500 is already gold plated it should compete with the alchemist series *(-- . David S. Mohler AT&T - ISL @ Denver drune!mohler
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/25/85)
[] Sounds like you have put 20 gallons of high-test in the exhaust pipe and are cursing the car. You mention as an aside that you didn't have a preamp. Did you really mean that, or did you mean you had no separate preamp? Sounds like your previous cartridge might have been a ceramic or crystal type which have high output and require no special equalization. If you plug <any> magnetic cartridge into that input you will get 1) no bass and 2) little signal either. It will tend to sound like a weak screetch. I know of no high quality phono that still uses a ceramic pickup. You need a magnetic cartreidge preamp. Radio Shack sells them, among other places. -- "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg
hachong@watmath.UUCP (Herb Chong) (09/25/85)
In article <3204@teklabs.UUCP> rafaeld@teklabs.UUCP (Rafael De Arce) writes: >Yes! I bought the Shure V15-VMR... and I'm not sure how I feel about this >disappointment. So for now I will blame the stereo system and/or myself. > >I lost my bass response! Have you ever listened to music without bass? (Very >sick.) > >I switched to the CD to see if maybe it was something else. Like magic! The >bass reappeared. So I put the old (cheapie) cartridge back on and behold... >the bass was back, again. it sounds like you have your left and right channels wired out of phase. check the headshell leads for correct connections. the type5 comes with color coded connections and most headshell leads are also color coded. headshells, though, are seldom marked. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... (will disappear September 30) UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!hachong CSNET: hachong%watmath@waterloo.csnet ARPA: hachong%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
cline@aero.ARPA (Ken Cline) (09/25/85)
None of my audiophile friends, or salesmen in better stores like Sure cartridges. When one customer complained about his $700 koetsu mistracking, the salesman replied, with obvious sarcasm, "You could have bough a Sure." I have heard that they are very tough, so keep it if you like to back-cue records, and produce your own rap music. Since I don't know anything about you system or price goals, all I can say is you might try listening to a cartridge before buying it (I was able to take my last one home on a trial basis), and seeking advice from others about your needs. By the way, there is a $15 Grado cartridge (model number keeps changing), which many people like best of all cartridges under $100! (I don't know how much your Sure cost). Sorry for the bad news, but its better to exchange it for a better brand now than suffer with bad sound. Ken Cline Cline@Aerospace.ARPA
jj@alice.UUCP (09/29/85)
Before you take Cline's advice, make sure you've got the polarities right on the cartridge connector, and also make sure you're using an approrpriately equalized input. Despite the repeated diatribes about Shure, it's clear beyond any shadow of a doubt to me that the only thing wrong with most Shure's is the price-- They're too cheap to have snob appeal, unless you actually paid list for it. -- SUPPORT SECULAR TEDDY-BEAR-ISM. "All the money that e'er I spent, I spent it in good company..." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj
schley@mmm.UUCP (Steve Schley) (09/30/85)
In article <474@aero.ARPA> cline@aero.UUCP (Ken Cline) writes: >None of my audiophile friends, or salesmen in better stores like Sure >cartridges. When one customer complained about his $700 koetsu mistracking, >the salesman replied, with obvious sarcasm, "You could have bough a Sure." First, spell it correctly: SHURE. I, too, have experienced this phenomenon among my audiophile friends. I attribute it to the attitude that anything from a mass-market manufacturer has to sound like _____ (fill in the blank). This is just one of the many highly-contagious audiophile diseases. (Before I get flamed, I must admit that I probably suffer from many myself!) These attitudes are very comfortable to hang on to, and very painful to lose. A few years back, our local club (The Audio Society of Minnesota) decided to test a few cartridges. A local recording engineer supplied some of his master tapes, his tape deck, and some LPs made from these very master tapes. We chose four cartridges, including the Shure V15 type 4 and the Dynavector Diamond. One at a time, a cartridge was set up on an Oracle table, and we double-blinded between the master tape and its vinyl progeny. The Shure won overwhelmingly. Many certified (-: golden-ears were dismayed (to say the least). My point is not that the Shure is the best. I'm merely saying that these cartridges deserve more attention than they get among high-enders. > >Ken Cline Cline@Aerospace.ARPA -- Steve Schley ihnp4!mmm!schley
kad@ttrdc.UUCP (Keith Drescher) (09/30/85)
In article <474@aero.ARPA> cline@aero.UUCP (Ken Cline) writes: >None of my audiophile friends, or salesmen in better stores like Sure >cartridges. When one customer complained about his $700 koetsu mistracking, >the salesman replied, with obvious sarcasm, "You could have bough a Sure." >I have heard that they are very tough, so keep it if you like to back-cue >records, and produce your own rap music. Sounds like another case of a salesman trying to sell a more expensive product by playing down a less expensive, but possibly good competitor. There's less commission to be made, so I suppose the reason is obvious. This has ****ALWAYS**** been my experience with stereo salesmen, from low end to the majority of the high end salespeople I've dealt with. This includes those who work for places which proudly proclaim "Our salesmen are non-commisioned, so they won't try to push something down your throat that you don't want." BULL. My experience with high-enders has been the worst. I find it slightly ridiculous to have some jerk spout out about how "Brand X" speakers are all tested by computer with Fourier transforms ...., when after talking to them for a few seconds it becomes obvious that they have absolutely no idea what a fourier transform is. When I get a salesman like this, I always request another and find another store if I can't get one who will help me instead of trying to shove what he wants to sell me down my throat. So, if anyone out there in netland could point me to a stereo place in Cleveland or Columbus Ohio, Greater Chicago, or the Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, or South Bend Indiana areas, which employs salespeople who aren't better suited to selling shoes, I'd be forever grateful. On the other hand, it would also be nice to find someone who has ever found a truly helpful and not pushy stereo salesperson. Disclaimer: I am not trying to recommend Shure cartridges, nor am I cutting down shoe salesman. But it would be nice if the average stereo salesman had some idea of what he was talking about. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Drescher (kad@ttrdc) | ... You can check out any ATT Computer Systems Division, Skokie, Il. | time you like - but you can PATH: ...!ihnp4!ttrdc!kad | never leave ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------
dh@vax135.UUCP (David N. Horn) (10/01/85)
Reversing the phase on one channel is a likely cause of losing bass. Dave Horn, AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ, vax135!dh
dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (10/01/85)
> None of my audiophile friends, or salesmen in better stores like Sure > cartridges. When one customer complained about his $700 koetsu mistracking, > the salesman replied, with obvious sarcasm, "You could have bough a Sure." > I have heard that they are very tough, so keep it if you like to back-cue > records, and produce your own rap music. > Horsepucky! There are plenty of audiophiles that aren't suffering from recto-cranial inversion and can tell you the V15-V MR is a very fine cartridge for the money and a very fine cartridge under any criteria. I don't have any idea what the problem with your cartridge is perhaps you got a bum one. I have a V15-VB and it works fine. It is spelled Shure by the way. David Albrecht
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (10/01/85)
> > Despite the repeated diatribes about Shure, it's clear beyond any > shadow of a doubt to me that the only thing wrong with most > Shure's is the price-- They're too cheap to have snob appeal, unless > you actually paid list for it. > > Not true. Discounts can also be found which place competitive (and, to my ears, significantly superior) models by Audioquest, Grado and Grace in the same price range. - Greg Paley
akhtar@ccvaxa.UUCP (10/01/85)
re: Audio salesmen pushing expensive products Well, salesmen who don't push stuff DO EXIST! There is a little place in Leeds, England call Audio Projects Ltd. Many years ago (whilst a student), I bought several components from them. They sell expensive stuff too, Revox, Linn etc, but I could always go in there, give them a figure I wanted to spend, and be given genuine honest advice, with absolutely no pressure to spend more. I bought quite a few cheap but quality items there, some of which I'm still using 6 yrs later. They also were willing to indulge you by demonstrating products you could not afford, knowing that you were not buying. I also found their policy of loaning out equipment for a home trial very civilized - no money involved - delivered to your door, for you to evaluate if you wanted it. ( I spent about 2 weeks on one occassion, evaluating a total of a half dozen pairs of speakers, at home!) But, such places are probably about as easy to find as the philosophers stone. My experience with stereo people in Champaign-Urbana is pretty depressing. Pervaze Akhtar ...uiucdcs!ccvaxa!akhtar
jj@alice.UUCP (10/02/85)
Greg, you should be a bit more careful when you say "not true", since it's only not true to you, or to people who have the same perceptual ?style?ethos?method?. I've listened to both Grace and Grado cartridges, and I find them utterly unlistenable, as well as likely to mistrack. The Graces I've listened to were a touch better than the Grado, by my ears, but that's about all I can can in the positive direction. I've never listened to the Audio* cartridge, I must admit. I've simply not seen it. You should (sometime) try the double blind cartridge test as described elsewhere in nut.audio, with the key on "carefully set up". I've found the Shure HE series styli a *B***T***H* to set up right, so check the setup before you dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Yes, one that's not very carefully adjusted so that the stylus axis is not on a radius of the table sounds pretty bad. They also don't do well on older arm designs that don't handle tracking error very well!) -- SUPPORT SECULAR TEDDY-BEAR-ISM. "From the cradle to the grave, from the cradle to the grave..." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj
nowicki@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU (10/03/85)
I agree about the Grado. If a cartridge is over-priced for what you get its
the Grado. (although the Grado is good if you like lots of "highs" but at
what I think is a sacrifice of the midrange). I own one anyway. (Its the
cheap model on a second table).
But after hearing the better Grado (a G+{something}- new name now I bet) on
a friends table for a year or so, I compared prices and got what I think is
a better sounding cartridge for a better price - a Signet.
The Signet also produced a much more impressive affect than the Grado with
the sonic-hologram unit. (does that say anything about separation?)
I guess its to each his own when buying these things.
----------
Tony Nowicki ARPA: nowicki@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
U. of Illinois, Urbana UUCP: {decvax, ihnp4}!uiucdcs!nowicki
Department of C.S., AI Lab. CSNET: nowicki@uiuc.csnetben@moncol.UUCP (Bennett Broder) (10/05/85)
>I agree about the Grado. If a cartridge is over-priced for what you get its >the Grado. (although the Grado is good if you like lots of "highs" but at >what I think is a sacrifice of the midrange). I own one anyway. (Its the >cheap model on a second table). Overpriced!?!? I have heard alot of criticism hurled at the Grado, but you are the first one to call it overpriced. At a list price of $18, it is cheaper than many record albums I've seen! Even their best cartridge is under $200 list (and available far cheaper), but let's stick to discussing the cheapie. I have listened to the $18 Grado, and was favorably impressed. True, the sound was noticibly colored, but, it was colored in a way that most Americans prefer, with the bass and treble emphasised. Kind of like the "U" shaped eq curves that masses seem to love. And distortion and tracking, while probably not exemplary, were not audible problems on the system I auditioned. Look, the inexpensive Grados are not audiophile cartridges. They were not intended to be. But they sound a heck of a lot better (to my ears, at least) than the bottom of the line Audio Technica, Pickering or Stanton models. Given that the price of the Grado is half that of its competitors, I think it deserves a serious listen by anyone shopping for an inexpensive cartridge. (Particularly if their musical taste is rock or jazz). Ben Broder ..vax135!petsd!moncol!ben ..ihnp4!princeton!moncol!ben
nowicki@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU (10/06/85)
Ok, Ok, I may have overstated my case a bit. The Grado I own is one of the bottom of the lines, a real bargain, but the "better" Grados may not necessarily be such a bargain. Look and listen around first. Your point about the U shaped curve is well stated, but I am a heavy jazz listener and after a long time listening to the Grado and being what I thought was satisfied, a switch to a different cartridge made a noticable improvment. After which, I found the Grado edgy. As I pointed out, this is all in the ear of the beholder (and the response of the speakers) -Tony
dep@allegra.UUCP (Dewayne Perry) (10/07/85)
<>
About the Grado cartridge - not the cheap one. First, there are Grado
cartridges listed over $200. I got the one listed for $200 for about
$180. It is only very slightly used should anyone wish to make me an offer.
1. It is poorly shielded: I had a hum that went away when I moved the
moved the turn table a further foot away from one of my mono amps
(it was already 2.5 feet from the amp)
2. It did not track worth beans on a Janet Baker recording of Mendelsson
songs. Now granted, it may well have been the fault of the tone arm
as well (a Grace 707 - a mismatch for the cartridge, but the three
dealers that were willing to sell the Grado as the latest-greatest
did not mention anything about a mismatch with my tonearm).
Any buyers? Dewaynegreg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (10/07/85)
> Greg, you should be a bit more careful when you say > "not true", since it's only not true to you, or > to people who have the same perceptual ?style?ethos?method?. > I should have been clearer. My "not true" comment was not directed at the surmise that the Shure cartridges were the best. It was directed at the comment that their low price was all that was keeping them out of the snob circles. My point was that there are cartridges in the same price bracket that are "in" with the snob circles, and that the Grace and Grado were examples. Being a snob and an elitist, I also happen to prefer the sound of Grace and Grado to the Shure, although I prefer the Audioquest to either those or the Shure. Aside from personal tastes, the question of which cartridge sounds better is going to depend quite a bit on the associated equipment. Aside from the "trackability", one of the important advantages of the Shure cartridges is the wide range of arms within which they will work well. The Grace, on the other hand, demands a very rigid but low-mass arm and considerable flexibility for alignment - the azimuth, overhang, and VTA are more critical, and therefore more difficult to set up. If your arm won't allow you to change the VTA, or is mounted so that you can't get the overhang right (as is the case with many turntables that come with the arm already installed), you're likely to encounter much more of a performance degradation with the Grace than a Shure. The Grado cartridges I've encountered are less fussy in this regard. The Audioquest, on the other hand, needs a high mass arm and considerable resonance damping on the headshell. These are the sort of issues that I, frankly, find a major pain in the ass and which finally drove me toward buying primarily CD's, even though I actually prefer the sound of a number of LP's. The amp and speakers make a difference also, of course. When I first switched from a Shure V15-5 to a Grace F9-Ruby, I preferred the Grace, even when listening through the Telefunken receiver and Bose 601's I had then. When, however, I switched to Hafler electronics and Vandersteen IIc speakers, the gain in detail and accuracy that the Grace offered over the Shure became far more apparent. - Greg Paley
oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev x258) (10/07/85)
In article <197@mmm.UUCP> Steve Schley writes : > In article <474@aero.ARPA> cline@aero.UUCP (Ken Cline) writes: > >None of my audiophile friends, or salesmen in better stores like Sure > >cartridges. When one customer complained about his $700 koetsu mistracking, > >the salesman replied, with obvious sarcasm, "You could have bough a Sure." > My point is not that the Shure is the best. I'm merely saying that > these cartridges deserve more attention than they get among high-enders. > ihnp4!mmm!schley A non-commercial public-interest radio station KPFK in LA has a very interesting show called "In Fidelity" dedicated to audio-file and music-lover audience. The hosts of the show are VERY biased: they DON'T like CDs, they DO prefer tubes, they think little of oriental-made equipment ( exept Nakamichi and the likes, that is).... Their advice about turntables/tonearms/cartriges was : the most important parts of the record player are a well insulated amd well mounted turntable, a well aligned and properly rigid tonearm, and a well shielded connectors. The cartridge is LESS important! Any non-trash, induction based (moving coil or moving core ) cartridge ( even a $30 one) will provide a good reproduction... While I agree that the tonearm and turntable are most important, I have to point out that *I* can hear a distinct difference between the sound of $30 30-18000Hz cartridge and $120 10-24000Hz one. Sorry I've never heard the $5000 cartridge, so don't know how different *it* sounds....
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (10/08/85)
> <> > > About the Grado cartridge - not the cheap one. First, there are Grado > cartridges listed over $200. I got the one listed for $200 for about > $180. It is only very slightly used should anyone wish to make me an offer. > > 1. It is poorly shielded: I had a hum that went away when I moved the > moved the turn table a further foot away from one of my mono amps > (it was already 2.5 feet from the amp) > > 2. It did not track worth beans on a Janet Baker recording of Mendelsson > songs. Now granted, it may well have been the fault of the tone arm > as well (a Grace 707 - a mismatch for the cartridge, but the three > dealers that were willing to sell the Grado as the latest-greatest > did not mention anything about a mismatch with my tonearm). > > Any buyers? Dewayne The shielding problem with Grado cartridges is one I've heard of from a number of sources, and something prospective buyers should be warned about. I've heard of it being a particular problem when used with the AR turntable and its indiginous arm. I find it interesting that Dewayne mentioned the problem with a Janet Baker record. I've found several of her records with piano accompaniment to be something of an acid test for cartridges and speakers. Although one might not think offhand of a solo voice (not even a high soprano at that) and piano record as a "demo", the fact is that her voice has a very complex timbre as well as a unique, delicate shimmer when heard live. Only top-notch equipment can reproduce these - on less accurate equipment her voice can easily sound dull and opaque. - Greg Paley
ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (10/11/85)
> While I agree that the tonearm and turntable are most important, > I have to point out that *I* can hear a distinct difference between > the sound of $30 30-18000Hz cartridge and $120 10-24000Hz one. Sorry > I've never heard the $5000 cartridge, so don't know how different > *it* sounds.... If they're by the same manufacturer, then of COURSE you can! Do you really think that a manufacturer would sell two cartridges for $30 and $120 if no one could hear any differences between them?! They'll do whatever it takes to make SURE you can hear a difference!