[net.audio] Digital Audio Cassettes...- and copying

rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (09/30/85)

[]
Oh, for goodness sakes, Steve. Have you never copied a record onto
a cassette? Are you therebye a pirate? Millions of people don't
think that they are when they do so for their own use and, most
often, own the record they are copying.  This probably more than
any other single thing, built the cassette industry.  It might
also do the same for a digital cassette industry.  I admit the
necessity of doing so is much attenuated, but then, it never was
<really> necessary with vinyl.

I think a more valid concern is the added expense in going from tape to
CD. I don't know. Given the choice would I go for a digital cassette
or the presently available VCR digital recording. Neither is splice-
editable. The VCR is somewhat larger and more ungainly, but it can
record for hours and hours without interruption. Both are presumably
copyable. Is the industry cooking up another 8mm disaster?  Is 8mm
a disaster? Was the Edsel?

-- 

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

schley@mmm.UUCP (Steve Schley) (09/30/85)

In article <1380@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:

>Oh, for goodness sakes, Steve. Have you never copied a record onto
>a cassette? Are you therebye a pirate? Millions of people don't
>think that they are when they do so for their own use and, most
>often, own the record they are copying.  

I have recorded my own records for my use (in the car).  I have also
practiced "piracy", but I don't much these days.  I am not a paragon of
virtue; likewise, the fact that "millions of people" do something makes
it alright.

I raised the issue merely to get people to think about an activity that
has caused much tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth in the computer
software industry.  An audio bit-copier -- think of it!

>I think a more valid concern is the added expense in going from tape to
>CD. I don't know. Given the choice would I go for a digital cassette
>or the presently available VCR digital recording. Neither is splice-
>editable. The VCR is somewhat larger and more ungainly, but it can
>record for hours and hours without interruption. Both are presumably
>copyable. Is the industry cooking up another 8mm disaster?  Is 8mm
>a disaster? Was the Edsel?

The 8mm digital standard calls for 8-bit (companded) conversions and a
sample rate of 32 kHz.  This is not hi-fi.  They are going in the wrong
direction!

>-- 
>
>"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

-- 
	Steve Schley

	ihnp4!mmm!schley

keithe@tekgvs.UUCP (Keith Ericson) (10/02/85)

 In article <1380@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
 >[]
 >Have you ever copied a record onto
 >a cassette? Are you thereby a pirate? Millions of people don't
 >think that they are when they do so for their own use and, most
 >often, own the record they are copying.
 >
This brings up a point that I've been meaning to bring up for quite a
while now. Here's the (perhaps hypothetical) situation: I own my stereo
system which includes a high-quality tape recorder (say a Beta HiFi) but
does *not* (yet) include a compact digital disk player. My friend,
however, does own both a CD and a Beta HiFi. Now I know it is outright
illegal to just make copies of his CDs for me to just take home and
listen to. *BUT* - and here's the heart of the question - what if I
already own an LP version (purchased legally and owned legitimately) of
the CD and now want to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD? I think we all
agree that it is legal for me to make a tape copy of my LP; am I
restricted from making a copy of the same material from my friend's CD
just because I don't own the copy in that specific medium? Does purchase
of the LP give me the right to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD?

Let the opinions begin...

keith
-- 
Keith Ericson  at TekLabs (resident factious factotum)
Tektronix, PO 500, MS 58-383
Beaverton OR 97077
(503)627-6042
uucp:	 [ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4|(and_many_others)]!tektronix!tekgvs!keithe
CSnet:	 keithe@tek
ARPAnet: keithe.tek@rand-relay

ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (10/03/85)

> This brings up a point that I've been meaning to bring up for quite a
> while now. Here's the (perhaps hypothetical) situation: I own my stereo
> system which includes a high-quality tape recorder (say a Beta HiFi) but
> does *not* (yet) include a compact digital disk player. My friend,
> however, does own both a CD and a Beta HiFi. Now I know it is outright
> illegal to just make copies of his CDs for me to just take home and
> listen to. *BUT* - and here's the heart of the question - what if I
> already own an LP version (purchased legally and owned legitimately) of
> the CD and now want to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD? I think we all
> agree that it is legal for me to make a tape copy of my LP; am I
> restricted from making a copy of the same material from my friend's CD
> just because I don't own the copy in that specific medium? Does purchase
> of the LP give me the right to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD?

We do NOT all agree that it is legal for you to make a tape copy of your LP.

My understanding is that that specific issue has not yet been
tested in the courts, and its legal status is therefor uncertain.
I'm sure some lawyer out there will correct me.

david@ukma.UUCP (David Herron, NPR Lover) (10/03/85)

In article <1234@tekgvs.UUCP> keithe@tekgvs.UUCP (Keith Ericson) writes:
> I think we all
>agree that it is legal for me to make a tape copy of my LP; am I
>restricted from making a copy of the same material from my friend's CD
>just because I don't own the copy in that specific medium? Does purchase
>of the LP give me the right to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD?
>
>Let the opinions begin...

Alright.  Buying the LP gives you liscense to listen to that piece of
sound.  Also, that tape recorder decision gives you the right to tape
that sound for yourself (not for others).

The CD has the same sound (Same mastering usually?) or sometimes better
sound quality of the same stuff.

You already have liscense to record that sound so therefore you have
the right to record your friends CD since it's the same sound.

In fact, an argument could be made that since you already have liscense
for that sound then if you buy a CD of the same thing then all you should
be paying for is media!

Let the opinions continue ...
-- 
David Herron, ukma!david@ANL-MCS.ARPA, cbosgd!ukma!david
(Soon -- david@UKMA.BITNET, and (hopefully) david@ukma.csnet)

Hackin's in me blood!  My mother was known as Miss Hacker before she married!

john@gcc-bill.ARPA (John Allred) (10/05/85)

In article <4387@alice.UUCP> ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) writes:

>> I think we all
>> agree that it is legal for me to make a tape copy of my LP

>
>We do NOT all agree that it is legal for you to make a tape copy of your LP.
>
>My understanding is that that specific issue has not yet been
>tested in the courts, and its legal status is therefor uncertain.
>I'm sure some lawyer out there will correct me.

I'm not a lawyer, but if memory serves, owners of a copywrited work are allowed
to make copies for "personal use", or something like that.

-- 
John Allred
General Computer Company 
uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!john

shun@ucla-cs.UUCP (10/06/85)

In article <1234@tekgvs.UUCP> keithe@tekgvs.UUCP (Keith Ericson) writes:

>..........   what if I
>already own an LP version (purchased legally and owned legitimately) of
>the CD and now want to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD? I think we all
>agree that it is legal for me to make a tape copy of my LP; am I
>restricted from making a copy of the same material from my friend's CD
>just because I don't own the copy in that specific medium? Does purchase
>of the LP give me the right to make a Beta HiFi copy of the CD?

When the price of a CD is higher than that of an LP,
and assume that the quality of the Beta HiFi (or digital cassette) copy
is the same as that of the CD, which is (assumed to be) better than your LP,
you are now getting something better (and more expensive?)
then what you paid for. Is that OK or not? Well, I'll leave it
up to you.

By the way, although CDs and digital cassettes will possibly have
different sampeling rates so that people won't be able to make
binary copies, are there going to be pre-recorded digital cassettes?
If so, people can still make copies from pre-recorded cassettes.

tdn@spice.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Thomas Newton) (10/14/85)

> By the way, although CDs and digital cassettes will possibly have
> different sampeling rates so that people won't be able to make
> binary copies, are there going to be pre-recorded digital cassettes?
> If so, people can still make copies from pre-recorded cassettes.

A recent issue of "Digital Audio" says that the manufacturers are working
out details of a standard which has

        Recording and playback at 48 KHz
        Playback only at 44.1 KHz (for prerecorded tapes)
        Possibly extra copy protection codes on top of the rate difference
	
So the decks will be incompatable with both CDs and prerecorded tapes.  I
think the first manufacturer to introduce a CD-compatable deck will clean
up, and the rest will be forced to follow suit or take enormous losses.

                                        -- Thomas Newton
                                           Thomas.Newton@spice.cs.cmu.edu