[net.audio] White Noise on CD's

ken@birtch.UUCP (Ken Brown x254) (10/03/85)

I don't know if it is true, but my roomate has informed me that the manu-
facturers of CD's introduce white noise (maybe pink noise) to reduce the
'spikes'.  CD's will produce a "stair-step" type of waveform, and the
white (pink) noise produces a flat line (or curve), instead of spikes.

disclaimer: I don't know if its true or just B.S.  (I don't work for no-one
	    who makes, designs, sells, uses, borrows, steals, or thinks
	    about CD's)

prk@charm.UUCP (Paul Kolodner) (10/08/85)

> I don't know if it is true, but my roomate has informed me that the manu-
> facturers of CD's introduce white noise (maybe pink noise) to reduce the
> 'spikes'.  CD's will produce a "stair-step" type of waveform, and the
> white (pink) noise produces a flat line (or curve), instead of spikes.
> 
> disclaimer: I don't know if its true or just B.S.  (I don't work for no-one
	> who makes, designs, sells, uses, borrows, steals, or thinks
	> about CD's)

This is pure, smooth bullshit.  Erase it from your memory and get a
new roommate.

ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (10/09/85)

>> I don't know if it is true, but my roomate has informed me that the manu-
>> facturers of CD's introduce white noise (maybe pink noise) to reduce the
>> 'spikes'.  CD's will produce a "stair-step" type of waveform, and the
>> white (pink) noise produces a flat line (or curve), instead of spikes.
>> 

> This is pure, smooth bullshit.  Erase it from your memory and get a
> new roommate.

Sorry, but the roommate is correct.

The process of adding noise to eliminate distortion caused by sampling
is called "dithering."  I am told that it is essential -- if it is
not done, the sampling effects are audible.  It is for that reason
that the highs, especially things like cymbals, sound slightly strange
in many earlier CD recordings (I have trouble hearing that effect myself,
but I know people who can detect it instantly and reliably).

herbie@polaris.UUCP (Herb Chong) (10/13/85)

In article <148@birtch.UUCP> ken@birtch.UUCP (Ken Brown x254) writes:
>I don't know if it is true, but my roomate has informed me that the manu-
>facturers of CD's introduce white noise (maybe pink noise) to reduce the
>'spikes'.  CD's will produce a "stair-step" type of waveform, and the
>white (pink) noise produces a flat line (or curve), instead of spikes.
>
>disclaimer: I don't know if its true or just B.S.  (I don't work for no-one
>	    who makes, designs, sells, uses, borrows, steals, or thinks
>	    about CD's)

this is known as dithering and there are few CD players these days
that don't use it.  the overall S/N is reduced, but the quantization 
noise at low levels is randomized so that subharmonics of the sampling
frequency are not audible.

Herb Chong...

I'm still user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

New net address --

VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH
UUCP:  {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo}!philabs!polaris!herbie
CSNET: herbie.yktvmh@ibm-sj.csnet
ARPA:  herbie.yktvmh.ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (10/17/85)

[]
Re:dithering

Isn't dithering done by white noise in the encoding process? If
added at the decoding process you just get simple masking - which
also helps.

-- 

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

schley@mmm.UUCP (Steve Schley) (10/17/85)

In article <193@polaris.UUCP> herbie@polaris.UUCP (Herb Chong) writes:
>In article <148@birtch.UUCP> ken@birtch.UUCP (Ken Brown x254) writes:
>>I don't know if it is true, but my roomate has informed me that the manu-
>>facturers of CD's introduce white noise (maybe pink noise) to reduce the
>>'spikes'.  CD's will produce a "stair-step" type of waveform, and the
>>white (pink) noise produces a flat line (or curve), instead of spikes.

>this is known as dithering and there are few CD players these days
>that don't use it.  the overall S/N is reduced, but the quantization 
>noise at low levels is randomized so that subharmonics of the sampling
>frequency are not audible.

To the best of my knowledge, there are few CD players that DO use
dithering at playback.  I think Ken meant that the manufacturers of the
DISCS were incorporating white noise, and some are.  Such dithering
does just what Herb claimed for it.

For those who want to know more about dither: check the last year of
issues of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.  Lipschitz and
Vanderkooy published a treatise on the application of dither in audio
analog-to-digital conversion.  My study of this article leads me to
think that dither is appropriate for analog-to-digital conversion, but
inappropriate for digital-to-analog conversion.  If anyone understands
these issues and would like to comment on them, I'd like to hear from
you (preferably by mail).  I'm trying to decide whether adding dither
to my CD player will likely improve its sound.

-- 
	Steve Schley

	ihnp4!mmm!schley